Babbling

[The-Green-Hornet]

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the_shotgun_rhetoric wrote:

FN SCAR-L

The 5.56 variant of the SCAR platform. I wish our armed services would just hurry up and adopt this and the SCAR-H.

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i can make the argument why we need the M14 with a scope to hang around for a while longer.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

Well, there's the M21 and the Mod 0. Those can stay. The SCAR-H seems like a better tactical platform for the 7.62, though.

[The-Green-Hornet]

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the_shotgun_rhetoric wrote:

Well, there's the M21 and the Mod 0. Those can stay. The SCAR-H seems like a better tactical platform for the 7.62, though.

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actually a .308 bullpup would be the best use of the .308, tactically.

like the RFB.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

I'm generally not sold on bullpup designs. Traditional designs seem more stable and accurate, especially full auto, plus you don't have to deal with all the complications of where to eject brass (many bullpups do convert right to left-handed, like the AUG). A traditional carbine like the M4 is still pretty compact, and the SCAR is around the same size or even shorter.

[The-Green-Hornet]

i'm sold on bullpup's, frankly because they have more to offer than a conventional setup.

You would be the M14 crowd and i would be the Armalite corporation in this thread.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

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The-Green-Hornet wrote:

i'm sold on bullpup's, frankly because they have more to offer than a conventional setup.

You would be the M14 crowd and i would be the Armalite corporation in this thread.

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Yeah, I'm kind of a traditionialist when it comes to rifles. A good older 7.62 NATO pattern rifle like the G3 or FAL is my preference virtually every time over a newer 5.56 design (for ranges past 100 yards, anyway). For close quarters work, I favor automatic/pump-action shotguns or modern PDW's like the P90. Still, there are plenty of modern 5.56 rifles I like.

[The-Green-Hornet]

if i can find a .308 bullpup i'll buy it over a 14.

right now the RFB is the only game intown.

cause i want a CQB .308, if i don't hit em maybe i can use the sound to rattle em.

but a .308 to the chest at 15 paces is going to ruin someones day.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

Anything bigger than .22LR in the chest at 15 paces will ruin someone's day.

And yeah even if  someone missed with a .308 at that range the big bang and resulting muzzle flash would still fill my pants. You could say that about a 12-gauge too, of course. Much less likely to miss also.

[The-Green-Hornet]

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the_shotgun_rhetoric wrote:

Anything bigger than .22LR in the chest at 15 paces will ruin someone's day.

And yeah even if  someone missed with a .308 at that range the big bang and resulting muzzle flash would still fill my pants. You could say that about a 12-gauge too, of course. Much less likely to miss also.

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true but a .308 will take you into the next county.

yeah but a 12 guage to me is unweildy, needs more bullpup!

ultimately bullpups will come on to the american military, everyone major force in the world sans the US has adopted some form of a bullpup.

[The-Green-Hornet]

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the_shotgun_rhetoric wrote:

Lee Enfield No. 4

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i got two boy.

a '42 and a '43.

the mosin is a '41.

My .45 is a '44 M1911A1.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

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The-Green-Hornet wrote:

ultimately bullpups will come on to the american military, everyone major force in the world sans the US has adopted some form of a bullpup.

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Yeah, and quite a few of them are either untested in real battle conditions or have been found lacking. The SA80, for instance. That rifle is such a piece of sh!t that not even H&K could fix it. France's FAMAS is better but still pretty mediocre (not much shorter than an M4, inferior accuracy, extraction problems, way too high rate of fire). The AUG has been around since the late '70s without any serious defects, that's a rifle that can be trusted. Makes me wonder why only Australia and a few smaller armies adopted it. The Tavor TAR-21 is Israeli, so I'm sure that's seen action but haven't heard very much about it outside of Future Wars (and they aren't exactly the most reliable source).

I greatly prioritize a proven weapons system with a long service life that's been gradually improved based on real world experience or designs that don't deviate majorly from what already works. The M16/M4, AK family, G3/G41, FN FAL/FNC, IMI Galil etc. were all regarded as standards and adopted by many forces around the world for a reason, and the FN SCAR is in the same mold.

[The-Green-Hornet]

the M16 wasn't perfect when it came in either.

something about jamming up under battle conditions, or some **alf** thing.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

The first M16's used in Vietnam were pieces of sh!t, and they were marketed as "self-cleaning" and didn't even come with kits. So naturally, they jammed. A LOT. The A1's released after that were better, and by the time the M16A2 and M4 were released most of the bugs were worked out. Eugene Stoner's direct-impingement system is still far from what I'd consider ideal for a military weapon, though. I prefer conventional gas designs.

[The-Green-Hornet]

if you have troops than can learn to clean a DI weapon is a superior system because its less moving parts, and less moving parts = less **alf** to break.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

True enough I guess, but I think Armalite's own AR-18 and similar platforms like the Daewoo K2 were corrections of the M16's design flaws. All the pluses of that rifle with a much more reliable gas piston system.

[The-Green-Hornet]

i still like DI. Stoner did it for a reason.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

That's fair. I think we can both agree though that the AR-10 would've been the better Stoner rifle for the military to adopt.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

Armalite AR-10 promo vid

[Cepheus84]

I don't recall seeing this before in the thread, but what's your take on the old Winchester lever-action repeating rifles?  I know they're old-school but I've been thinking about getting a reproduction of one my father had and loved.

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

I've fired Marlin .22LR and .308 Marlin Express lever-actions and love them, but haven't fired an actual Winchester. For big game hunting (say, bear or moose) I'd much rather have a lever action .45-70 Govt than a comparable bolt action.

[Cepheus84]

I've seen Marlins around, but it's hard to find an actual modern version of a Winchester. My dad had a Winchester with the side-loading slot for the shells and everything. Marlins are nice but I think I'd like to get my hands on an actual Winchester.

[The-Green-Hornet]

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the_shotgun_rhetoric wrote:

That's fair. I think we can both agree though that the AR-10 would've been the better Stoner rifle for the military to adopt.

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i think at the time the M14 was the better choice on a couple of counts.

1.) Its effectively a better M1 Garand, at the time of its adoption troops were still being trained with the M1, so it wasn't a far leap to train troops from the M1 to the 14.

2.) The Ar-10 while novel had one major flaw, the takedown pins, and this still remains a problem on it to this day. The .308 Cartridge knocks the living hell out of those takedown pins, the .223 was a better choice for the system overall.

however i do like the AR-10 very much, it was a great concept and provided you use sparingly it'll last a long time.

[The-Green-Hornet]

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Cepheus84 wrote:
I've seen Marlins around, but it's hard to find an actual modern version of a Winchester. My dad had a Winchester with the side-loading slot for the shells and everything. Marlins are nice but I think I'd like to get my hands on an actual Winchester.

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i've got two Marlins. One is a glennfield (think cheaper marlin, though mine is finished better than a comperable marlin would be, its also a tiger stripe) Model 30A, and the marlin is a 336.

Tigger

[The-Green-Hornet]

Epic Lulz

[the_shotgun_rhetoric]

There's also the Stoner 63, which was a similar design chambered in 5.56. It could be converted to belt feed like the AR-10, and makes a pretty excellent light machine gun as you can see by the vid. The SEALs used it in Vietnam.