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lunarnoodle
Posts: 9,160
Registered: ‎06-23-2003

Re: Medical Rape?

[ Edited ]

Reply to anDaibhalsHusair - Message ID#: 63546083

Taking your temperature before surgery is not mandated by state legislation. It's done at the discretion of your physician.
I am completely serious.
SwimHotshot
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to lunarnoodle - Message ID#: 63796129


lunarnoodle wrote:
Taking your temperature before surgery is not mandated by state legislation. It's done at the discretion of your physician.


w-w-haaT? WWAAAAAAAAAAAPEEEEEE!

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Gaius_Sextus
Posts: 8,817
Registered: ‎07-16-2009
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to fugglesss - Message ID#: 63796521


fugglesss wrote:

lunarnoodle wrote:
Taking your temperature before surgery is not mandated by state legislation. It's done at the discretion of your physician.

w-w-haaT? WWAAAAAAAAAAAPEEEEEE!


So then, I expect you'd be perfectly fine with rectal probes for men seeking ED medication to make sure their prostates are in good enough shape for them having sex?

http://www.visembryo.com/

Good men don't need rules. Now is not the time to find out why I have so many.

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Gaius_Sextus
Posts: 8,817
Registered: ‎07-16-2009
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Gaius_Sextus - Message ID#: 63532645

We Need Vaginal Ultrasounds So That Mothers Can Remember What Pregnancy Was Like

http://www.visembryo.com/

Good men don't need rules. Now is not the time to find out why I have so many.

"Holy Sh!t, Hellhounds!"
"Harry, you know I don't like it when you swear."
"Oh, sorry. I forgot. Holy Sh!t, Heckhounds!"
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lunarnoodle
Posts: 9,160
Registered: ‎06-23-2003
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to fugglesss - Message ID#: 63796521


fugglesss wrote:

lunarnoodle wrote:
Taking your temperature before surgery is not mandated by state legislation. It's done at the discretion of your physician.


w-w-haaT? WWAAAAAAAAAAAPEEEEEE!


I don't know what this means.

I am completely serious.
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westpark
Posts: 59,269
Registered: ‎10-26-2005
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to lunarnoodle - Message ID#: 63802491


lunarnoodle wrote:

fugglesss wrote:

lunarnoodle wrote:
Taking your temperature before surgery is not mandated by state legislation. It's done at the discretion of your physician.


w-w-haaT? WWAAAAAAAAAAAPEEEEEE!


I don't know what this means.


Its fuggles talk.

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GinaSzanboti
Posts: 19,882
Registered: ‎09-17-2003

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to lunarnoodle - Message ID#: 63802491


lunarnoodle wrote:

fugglesss wrote:

lunarnoodle wrote:
Taking your temperature before surgery is not mandated by state legislation. It's done at the discretion of your physician.


w-w-haaT? WWAAAAAAAAAAAPEEEEEE!


I don't know what this means.


I think it means she thinks taking your temperature before surgery is codified in law.   Cause you know, protocols for all medical procedures are minutely detailed in countless laws, otherwise doctors wouldn't have any idea what they were supposed to do.  That's why lawyers and politicians are qualified to be doctors.


Madness is not a place one goes, it’s a spider waiting to feel the tremble of the web. -- GuiltyRed
We're all mad here. - The Cheshire Cat
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Master-Debater131
Posts: 57,191
Registered: ‎06-20-2005
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Gaius_Sextus - Message ID#: 63532645

If the government can mandate you own health care then they sure as hell can mandate what happens with that health care.

What a wonderful world we live in.


Oh and this is in absolutely no way rape and it demeans actual rapes.

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MasterEv
Posts: 15,196
Registered: ‎08-03-2009

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Gaius_Sextus - Message ID#: 63532645

I consider it rape, definitely.

 

I thought it was time for a new sig!!!! =D
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Glodson
Posts: 67,079
Registered: ‎07-13-2003

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Master-Debater131 - Message ID#: 63803409

No, they cannot. And they sure as hell cannot mandate a procedure that is both unethical and unnecessary. While I agree that it is hyperbole and sensationalism to call it rape, it doesn't mean that the procedure is any less invasive. The idea should be to make sure that all people have access to the medical care they need without the fear of bankruptcy. That's a sensible concern, and a conversation worth having.

But to claim that because they can require us to get insurance they can require doctors preform arbitrary and pointless procedures in an attempt to shame women out of getting an abortion is flat out wrong. It is like saying that because the government forces you to get car insurance, mechanics have to do a pointless diagnostic because of a state law.
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anDaibhalsHusair
Posts: 3,462
Registered: ‎07-21-2011
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to lunarnoodle - Message ID#: 63796129

You misunderstood. My comment was directed to the blog author that equates disagreeable medical practices to rape, when in some perverse logic could still hold an iota legitimacy.
We would be surprised to find ourselves in a universe in which we couldn't live - Lawrence Krauss

Mistakes are some of the best things In life.
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GinaSzanboti
Posts: 19,882
Registered: ‎09-17-2003

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to anDaibhalsHusair - Message ID#: 63806943

What you said was, " It's not much different than than requiring a person to consent to having their temperature taken before surgery, which is infact meant to check for abnormalities that could complicate the surgery."

 

It's only not much different if you were required to have your temperature taken by sigmoid colonoscopy before surgery.  A transvaginal ultrasound is a little more than "disagreeable."  And you could probably sign off on having your temp taken before surgery and still get the surgery.

 

What makes this rape is that you can't refuse to consent to it and still get the medical procedure you're seeking.  Consent and coercion are both part of the definition of rape (as is unwilling penetration with foreign objects), and this is coercion at its most explicit.  And saying yes is not consent if you can't say no.


Madness is not a place one goes, it’s a spider waiting to feel the tremble of the web. -- GuiltyRed
We're all mad here. - The Cheshire Cat
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lunarnoodle
Posts: 9,160
Registered: ‎06-23-2003

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to anDaibhalsHusair - Message ID#: 63806943

I didn't misunderstand that you were addressing the blog author. I just think your analogy of temperature taking is fallacious. Gina already explained very well, so I'll leave it at that.

It's just, this is the only medical procedure mandated by law. The first time that decisions about.direct care have been removed from a patient and her doctor and dictated by government. Not only is it invasive (as in privacy, though literally as well) it sets a disturbing precedent.
I am completely serious.
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anDaibhalsHusair
Posts: 3,462
Registered: ‎07-21-2011
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to GinaSzanboti - Message ID#: 63807087

Not really. The reason why it was directed toward the blog, is precisely what's going on in this discussion. We have taken to task to explaining and interpreting the law, the claims, the definitions, and potential ramifications. Where the blog author has many claims, but poor explanation or reasoning for those claims.

I'm just looking at it from more of a debate vantage than any implied sense of vulgarity.
We would be surprised to find ourselves in a universe in which we couldn't live - Lawrence Krauss

Mistakes are some of the best things In life.
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Master-Debater131
Posts: 57,191
Registered: ‎06-20-2005
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Glodson - Message ID#: 63805007

Yes, they can. The second you let the government get involved in health care they can make whatever decision they want. If they say that you must get X done then you must get X done. If they say that Y it to expensive and you cant get it, then Y is to expensive and you cant get it. Weve already seen that happen with a Breast Cancer pill that had its FDA approval pulled because it was "to expensive".

By going in for an abortion you are consenting to a procedure that was already done in in Planed Parenthood before many abortions. This isn't forced on anyone.
All the arguments that the left are making are the same ones the right made during the Obamacare debate. And guess what happened there?

The rather funny thing is stuff like this was called "alarmism" during the Obamacare debate. Now that its happening the left is outraged, OUTRAGED I TELL YOU!

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Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money. Just ask Greece
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Glodson
Posts: 67,079
Registered: ‎07-13-2003
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Master-Debater131 - Message ID#: 63809653

No, they cannot.

This is stupid. Name another procedure mandated by law, name another procedure where it is medically unnecessary and yet required by the law. I don't care if we have a state run hospital system, or we have to buy our own insurance. That's right, the only mandate is to buy your insurance. It is about payment. So actually adding a procedure to make a bill higher doesn't make sense in that regards either. Once we have our insurance, it is ours to do with it as we see fit. Again, like the auto insurance example. I can elect to just buy the state minimum, or I can get the top end. Doesn't matter, as long as I have it. I can opt to not use it in the case of a collision and pay for my own repairs out of pocket, should I elect to do so. Same with my body. If I go in for a procedure, it is between me and the doctor, and possibly the insurance company.

But no, in this case, a group of people are forcing unwanted and unneeded medical procedures down the throats of women. All women. Making the bill more expensive as it is another procedure. Just because we are required coverage, that doesn't mean that they get to decide how we use it. Period. Medical care should only be between the patient and the doctor. That's it. The reason for the health care reform is so that every American will be able to afford health care, not so the government can abuse its authority. The slippery #### here doesn't work, as the cause of the health care reform does not lead to government control of our medical needs.

Now, for the last issue remaining, the only one that I've read rejected in recent memory is Avastin, which was found to be ineffective in fighting Breast Cancer by the FDA advisory panel in a vote of 6 to 0. I have not read of any drugs being rejected over the cost. If any were, then the FDA was wrong in that. Cost should not be a concern when saving human lives. The whole point of the health care mandate was to find a way for all Americans to have some sort of coverage, so they could get medical help without concern for the cost. If any politician tries to twist that so they can force unneeded medical procedures on any group of Americans, those politicians should be voted out of office. And about the FDA, I do worry that they are corrupt in and in the pockets of big pharmaceutical companies.

It should be noted that our health care system is a mess. We pay far more than we get out of it. It is convoluted. And these laws make it into even more of a joke. Throwing your hands up and saying "Oh, it is Obamacare" when it is pro-life extremists forcing their will onto people via MEDICALLY UNNECESSARY procedures on women is just fearmongering. Getting people care they need is good, and perhaps there is a better way than what we have, but to blame it for the gross failure of politicians is folly.
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I can't get this soon enough..
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Master-Debater131
Posts: 57,191
Registered: ‎06-20-2005
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Glodson - Message ID#: 63809817

Mandated Contraception.

The amusing thing is you are making the exact same arguments that the Church made when that got enacted via fiat.
The mental hurdles your going through to be outraged at this while not outraged at the contraception and obamacare in general is amusing. '

You have 3 very distinct instances where the government is getting involved in a place it has no business. Only 1 of them is worthy of outrage because the other two fit your political views.


When you go in for a procedure you accept everything that comes with it. You don't sign another waiver for getting alcohol swabbed on your arm before you get a shot, for temperature being taken, for the doctor looking in your ears. They are all included.

Also the rather amusing thing that the left seem to be willfully ignoring is that the trans-vag ultrasounds arent the only possibility. The doctor could use other ultrasound options available to them. But thats a inconvenient thing to know so we just dont talk about it.........

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Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money. Just ask Greece
Ive got a lovely bunch of coconuts
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Gaius_Sextus
Posts: 8,817
Registered: ‎07-16-2009
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Master-Debater131 - Message ID#: 63809961

Who the fuuuuuudge is mandating contraception for anyone? That's a dishonest argment and you #### well know it.

http://www.visembryo.com/

Good men don't need rules. Now is not the time to find out why I have so many.

"Holy Sh!t, Hellhounds!"
"Harry, you know I don't like it when you swear."
"Oh, sorry. I forgot. Holy Sh!t, Heckhounds!"
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Sorce
Posts: 5,865
Registered: ‎01-20-2005

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Master-Debater131 - Message ID#: 63809961

It's a mandate for insurers to cover contraception, not for all women to take it. If you don't want certain things done during a procedure, you work with the doctor to find a way around it. They don't just say 'shut up and take it'.

I have no qualms calling it rape because it's coercion, and y'all can dance around it all you want by calling it very 'invasive'. A spade is a spade. Rape is about power, shame, and some rape victims are told to submit or die. It's the same choice women who need an abortion have to face, so tell how is it different.
Giles: Don't taunt the fear demon.
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Giles: No, it's just... tacky.
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scoobdog
Posts: 23,387
Registered: ‎09-13-2003
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Master-Debater131 - Message ID#: 63809961


Master-Debater131 wrote:
Mandated Contraception.

The amusing thing is you are making the exact same arguments that the Church made when that got enacted via fiat.
The mental hurdles your going through to be outraged at this while not outraged at the contraception and obamacare in general is amusing. '

Contraception is  mandated?  Since when?

 

And that isn't applicable.  Churches, as group entitites, do not inherently have the same rights as individuals and were never intended to.  A church does not have the same right to religious freedom as its individual members do.

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GinaSzanboti
Posts: 19,882
Registered: ‎09-17-2003
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to anDaibhalsHusair - Message ID#: 63807641


anDaibhalsHusair wrote:
Not really. The reason why it was directed toward the blog, is precisely what's going on in this discussion. We have taken to task to explaining and interpreting the law, the claims, the definitions, and potential ramifications. Where the blog author has many claims, but poor explanation or reasoning for those claims.

I'm just looking at it from more of a debate vantage than any implied sense of vulgarity.

Not really what?  Frankly that whole post went over my head.  :/


Madness is not a place one goes, it’s a spider waiting to feel the tremble of the web. -- GuiltyRed
We're all mad here. - The Cheshire Cat
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GinaSzanboti
Posts: 19,882
Registered: ‎09-17-2003

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Master-Debater131 - Message ID#: 63809961


Master-Debater131 wrote:
Also the rather amusing thing that the left seem to be willfully ignoring is that the trans-vag ultrasounds arent the only possibility. The doctor could use other ultrasound options available to them. But thats a inconvenient thing to know so we just dont talk about it.........

No, the law under discussion mandates the transvaginal ultrasounds.  Which is why it's so beyond the pale.

 

And requiring any sort of ultrasound, whether the doctor thinks it's necessary or not, is part of the issue.


Madness is not a place one goes, it’s a spider waiting to feel the tremble of the web. -- GuiltyRed
We're all mad here. - The Cheshire Cat
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anDaibhalsHusair
Posts: 3,462
Registered: ‎07-21-2011
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Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to GinaSzanboti - Message ID#: 63811683

Picture it this way. You're in the state house lobbying for a repeal. It's been demonstrated already that there is a potential bias both with the lawmakers and judicial system. So its hostile. Now appeals to emotion like calling it rape (the vulgarity) will go no where, and likely be dismissed on that premise. What would be needed is indisputable fact explaining how the practice conflicts with the state, and or us constitution or laws. A conflict such as inflicting undue stress on the patient. A sonogram obviously isn't needed here, where so many other states make due just fine without one. And certainly not an introvaginal sonogram.

I'm not thinking of this thread as much as I'm thinking about how the opposition should have constructed their argument initially. What's causing frustration for me Is how little It actually matters whether its rape or not, because the definition so far appears to be stretched to include this procedure based on how it makes people 'feel' more than what they can actually prove. Is it rape? Probably. But as far as these states are concerned, its not.

Besides. Aside from living in a blue state, I told my girlfriend that if she gets pregnant, we won't have to worry about who's insurance would cover It, because "why else do you think we live on the third floor."
We would be surprised to find ourselves in a universe in which we couldn't live - Lawrence Krauss

Mistakes are some of the best things In life.
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770312
Posts: 17,860
Registered: ‎07-02-2008

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to Gaius_Sextus - Message ID#: 63532645

It's not "medical rape," it's just rape. :smileyindifferent:
There are things that are happening.
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GinaSzanboti
Posts: 19,882
Registered: ‎09-17-2003

Re: Medical Rape?

Reply to anDaibhalsHusair - Message ID#: 63813111


anDaibhalsHusair wrote:
What's causing frustration for me Is how little It actually matters whether its rape or not, because the definition so far appears to be stretched to include this procedure based on how it makes people 'feel' more than what they can actually prove. Is it rape? Probably. But as far as these states are concerned, its not.

Again:  What makes this rape is that you can't refuse to consent to it and still get the medical procedure you're seeking.  Consent and coercion are both part of the definition of rape (as is unwilling penetration with foreign objects), and this is coercion at its most explicit.  And saying yes is not consent if you can't say no.

 

It's not just about how it makes you "feel" (as if that were unimportant), but all the aspects of it that fit the legal definition of rape.  There's no proof needed when it's written into the law.  oO


Madness is not a place one goes, it’s a spider waiting to feel the tremble of the web. -- GuiltyRed
We're all mad here. - The Cheshire Cat