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Swimfamous
Rasputin0070
Posts: 17,525
Registered: ‎02-27-2004

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Saddy - Message ID#: 64174671

That's the thing, the whole point of the "stand your ground" deal as I understand it is there are no exceptions.  Save for if it's standing your ground committing a crime.

 

But isn't murder a crime?

 

It's not murder if you're defending yourself. 

 

What about excessive force?

 

The force isn't necessarily excessive if it was in defence. 

 

 

And that's where my brain explodes.  Another stupid, tautological law that lets idiots get away with murder.

Ignorance is forgivable, but willful ignorance is not. -lowman :: Perception is a real mutha for ya. -slyfoxx2
The S.U.V. [ Sorry about the broken promise thing, but I'm evil. ]
A Brave Accomplishment for the People, Comrades.
SwimHotshot
Posts: 17,967
Registered: ‎01-16-2007
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Rasputin0070 - Message ID#: 64174793

Wow. Please don't tell me we are now so dumb a society we can shoot each other without any reprecussions. Please!
Then saddy is right in saying we are going backwards ..way backwards.

Its to the point where its like we all have to considerably fear for our lives. I mean, we can't walk about at night, right?
psn: sweetcandygrl
Order of the Kitty
Saddy
Posts: 101,076
Registered: ‎08-15-2003
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Rasputin0070 - Message ID#: 64174793

ugh. way to go florida. can we just get rid of all of the states south of delaware? please?

'cause i'm all yours if you're all mine
i'm a white wh*re driving a white bushcar bought by a black man
Swimfamous
Heinekenrana
Posts: 15,298
Registered: ‎07-18-2006
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Saddy - Message ID#: 64174929

no, because we need at least two for prison states. Also I think i'm south of Delaware and I am neither an idiot (which is debateable) or racisr (which is not, despite Yellow7's claims to the contrary, because he's a turtle).
Order of the Kitty
Saddy
Posts: 101,076
Registered: ‎08-15-2003
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Heinekenrana - Message ID#: 64175373

you can just come and live with me forever and ever.

'cause i'm all yours if you're all mine
i'm a white wh*re driving a white bushcar bought by a black man
SwimNerd
TOODOooOFEElyeeaah
Posts: 355
Registered: ‎03-19-2012

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Buddyroe274 - Message ID#: 64115409


Buddyroe274 wrote:

A lot has changed, but some things never do........Had the roles been reversed it would be a media frenzy, and the kid would be a national hero........Odd the way things are, but it doesn't even faze me anymore.


Well thank God it continues to faze some of us. You know, don't quietly give into that "Good Night" as it were. Fight the Good Fight, let not anarchy take us unaware or apathetic.

 

 

Apathy is death.

TIME TIME TOCK TICK

TICK TICK DANCE TICK TOCK NO FACE NO EYES SIGHT NO MIND NO NO
NO NO NO NONOOON NonoNNO NOONONONON nONOoNOOOOooOOO
Swimuminati
Glodson
Posts: 76,562
Registered: ‎07-13-2003

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Rasputin0070 - Message ID#: 64174793

Well, I don't think it works if you start the confrontation. Like in this case. Evidence shows that Zimmerman tracked Martin down, and got out of his car to confront him. Evidence suggests that it was Zimmerman who started the physical confrontation. And it is a reasonable conclusion as Zimmerman outweighed the child by 100 pounds. That right there will kill any self-defense attempt. And it doesn't help that during the call to his friend, Martin was clearly trying to get away from the man.

But let's say that Martin did actually start the confrontation, in spite of evidence to the contrary. Then the fact that witnesses heard the child screaming out of terror, and for help, makes what Zimmerman did murder. Once your attacker is subdued, you cannot keep going. If in the course of defending yourself, your attacker dies, that's justified. But if you cause your attacker to flee, and you cash them down and kill them, that's murder. Which is the end of any case for self-defense. I don't even believe a stand-your-ground law allows for that. If I knock out my attacker and then while they are unconscious, I strangle them, I don't get protection. The fact that people heard Martin screaming for help is evidence that whatever physical confrontation there was was already over. Which means the killing falls outside of any notion of self-defense.

Self-defense does partially shift the burden of proof. In a trial, Zimmerman would have to prove that he was in the midst of a physical confrontation started by Martin. Based on the evidence thus far, Martin did not start the confrontation. So it falls apart there. It is dead when a witness says that it was Martin calling for help.

While I think this is a bad law, it could not be used as a basis for defense in this trial. The real problem lies with the police who did not really bother investigating this crime, and who even tried to correct a witness's statement. Right now, Zimmerman should be sitting in a jail cell, worried for his life. He should need to get an attorney who can hope to reduce the charges to manslaughter. A competent prosecutor and a decent police staff would make short work of this case. I don't know about the prosecutor, but the police staff have already screwed the pooch.
Swimfamous
Rasputin0070
Posts: 17,525
Registered: ‎02-27-2004
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Glodson - Message ID#: 64177121

From what I heard this morning they're also petitioning for the resignation of the police chief as well. 

 

This is all just so bloody crazy. 

 

I can't imagine being the dad of this kid. 

Ignorance is forgivable, but willful ignorance is not. -lowman :: Perception is a real mutha for ya. -slyfoxx2
The S.U.V. [ Sorry about the broken promise thing, but I'm evil. ]
A Brave Accomplishment for the People, Comrades.
Swimuminati
Glodson
Posts: 76,562
Registered: ‎07-13-2003

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Rasputin0070 - Message ID#: 64177367

It would be one thing if they actually treated it like an investigation and just had no evidence. That would be one thing. But instead, Zimmerman CALLED THE DAMNED POLICE HIMSELF before the attack and telegraphed his intent. Maybe he didn't step out intending to kill this kid, but he was at least going to detain him until police arrived.

And that's already against the law. No one can go and detain a person for police because they are walking down the street. So, he already was breaking the law. And it just takes a split second to create intent. So yea, the police chief should resign, and the responding officers need some major disciplinary action, if not fired outright.
SwimSuperfan
FussyMcFusserson
Posts: 2,470
Registered: ‎08-01-2011
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to The_Pirate-King - Message ID#: 64115107

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/republican-base-exposed-by
-davidoatkins.html

 

*sigh*

" . . . And sometimes when you fall, you fly."
SwimFan
candiegrlcane
Posts: 939
Registered: ‎03-21-2012
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Glodson - Message ID#: 64177447

If the feds end up doing nothing...... I can't even IMAGINE the backlash
Remember what happened when the police that beat Rodney King got off with a slap on the wrist?? And this is WAY worse...
fuggmore

Shooting babies in the face is wrong. That's not subjective. -Cepheus
SwimNerd
Renoite
Posts: 214
Registered: ‎03-08-2012
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to FussyMcFusserson - Message ID#: 64178163

SwimSuperfan
FussyMcFusserson
Posts: 2,470
Registered: ‎08-01-2011
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to The_Pirate-King - Message ID#: 64115107

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2012/03/wednesday-blogarou
nd_21.html

 

Lots o' links here . . . . .

" . . . And sometimes when you fall, you fly."
RRRRRR!!
The_Pirate-King
Posts: 66,614
Registered: ‎01-31-2006
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Saddy - Message ID#: 64174671

As I understand "stand your ground", it removes any burden from a shooter to find a non-violent or non-lethal solution to a threat (like running away). Of course, there has to be an actual threat in the first place, initiated by someone else; however, since nobody saw how the confrontation started, it will likely be difficult to convict Zimmerman.
SwimNerd
Renoite
Posts: 214
Registered: ‎03-08-2012
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to The_Pirate-King - Message ID#: 64178395

It was my understanding that Neighborhood Watch was not supposed to be a single person, or an armed person - shouldn't that be enough to cast suspicion?

RRRRRR!!
The_Pirate-King
Posts: 66,614
Registered: ‎01-31-2006

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to FussyMcFusserson - Message ID#: 64178163

It's good to see republicans showing their true colors... :smileyindifferent:
RRRRRR!!
The_Pirate-King
Posts: 66,614
Registered: ‎01-31-2006
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Renoite - Message ID#: 64178497

Yeah, there is DEFINITELY enough information to cast some serious suspicion on Zimmerman, to the point where he should at the very least have been arrested. All the information points to him provoking or harassing Martin in some way, Martin defends himself (because that's what you're supposed to do when an armed stranger who's not a cop attacks you?), and then Zimmerman shoots him for defending himself.
SwimNerd
TOODOooOFEElyeeaah
Posts: 355
Registered: ‎03-19-2012
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to westpark - Message ID#: 64116127


westpark wrote:

I heard the other day that this guy Zimmerman is hispanic.

 

Where as the initial reports said he was white. Is that true?



He is probably White Hispanic.

 

Ugh, the reason they aren't holding him, besides the blatant racial profiling and the racist police officers. Is because he was probably claiming self defense. And all of the other white racist neighbors just didn't want to side against this ... "Person"... ugh....

 

I wasn't there though, I don't have any of the facts. But the fact the man had to kill this kid, something is wrong with the picture, could have just wounded him if you had a fire arm.

TIME TIME TOCK TICK

TICK TICK DANCE TICK TOCK NO FACE NO EYES SIGHT NO MIND NO NO
NO NO NO NONOOON NonoNNO NOONONONON nONOoNOOOOooOOO
Swimuminati
Glodson
Posts: 76,562
Registered: ‎07-13-2003
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to The_Pirate-King - Message ID#: 64178395


The_Pirate-King wrote:
As I understand "stand your ground", it removes any burden from a shooter to find a non-violent or non-lethal solution to a threat (like running away). Of course, there has to be an actual threat in the first place, initiated by someone else; however, since nobody saw how the confrontation started, it will likely be difficult to convict Zimmerman.


I disagree. There's evidence enough to show that Zimmerman provoked any encounter. The call with Martin's friend indicates that Martin had no desire to confront Zimmerman, and was actively trying to elude the man. The accounts of people living nearby suggest that even if Martin started the attack, he had quit attacking. So unless the "stand your ground" law allows for the defender to pursue and attack the attacker even after the attacker has given up the fight, the fact that Martin was screaming for help indicates that Zimmerman pressed the attack.

All the mounting evidence shows that Zimmerman was the aggressor, and that he kept at it. Getting a murder conviction should be easy. The botched police investigation is the hurdle. But failing murder, manslaughter should be easy as well.

If this man gets away with it, there should be some serious consequences for all the officers, and the department, involved.
RRRRRR!!
The_Pirate-King
Posts: 66,614
Registered: ‎01-31-2006
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Glodson - Message ID#: 64178717


Glodson wrote:

The_Pirate-King wrote:
As I understand "stand your ground", it removes any burden from a shooter to find a non-violent or non-lethal solution to a threat (like running away). Of course, there has to be an actual threat in the first place, initiated by someone else; however, since nobody saw how the confrontation started, it will likely be difficult to convict Zimmerman.


I disagree. There's evidence enough to show that Zimmerman provoked any encounter. The call with Martin's friend indicates that Martin had no desire to confront Zimmerman, and was actively trying to elude the man. The accounts of people living nearby suggest that even if Martin started the attack, he had quit attacking. So unless the "stand your ground" law allows for the defender to pursue and attack the attacker even after the attacker has given up the fight, the fact that Martin was screaming for help indicates that Zimmerman pressed the attack.

All the mounting evidence shows that Zimmerman was the aggressor, and that he kept at it. Getting a murder conviction should be easy. The botched police investigation is the hurdle. But failing murder, manslaughter should be easy as well.

If this man gets away with it, there should be some serious consequences for all the officers, and the department, involved.
I agree there. You're right, there's too much evidence to the contrary for it to possibly be seen as self defense. As long as the feds bring along a competent lawyer, it should work out.
Swimuminati
Glodson
Posts: 76,562
Registered: ‎07-13-2003
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to The_Pirate-King - Message ID#: 64178757

If Zimmerman gets a good attorney, I would bet he ends up taking a plea deal for a lesser charge.

That would be the safest bet for him. With the media coverage and all, fighting a murder charge in court is risky.

Then again, I thought Casey Anthony would get hit with some charge... and this is also Florida.

I guess I should revise my stance, and say that a murder conviction SHOULD be easy.
SwimFan
candiegrlcane
Posts: 939
Registered: ‎03-21-2012
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to candiegrlcane - Message ID#: 64178211

on facebook there is a photo people are linking showing Michael Vick got 23 months in jail for fighting dogs, yet no jail time for Zimmerman. :\
fuggmore

Shooting babies in the face is wrong. That's not subjective. -Cepheus
SwimStar
Mjöllnir
Posts: 7,086
Registered: ‎10-08-2010
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to candiegrlcane - Message ID#: 64178807

Yeah but dogs are cute.
SwimFan
candiegrlcane
Posts: 939
Registered: ‎03-21-2012
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to Mjöllnir - Message ID#: 64180533


Mjöllnir wrote:
Yeah but dogs are cute.

-_-

 

 ........ click.. HERE

fuggmore

Shooting babies in the face is wrong. That's not subjective. -Cepheus
SwimStar
Mjöllnir
Posts: 7,086
Registered: ‎10-08-2010
0

Re: More on the Trayvon Martin shooting

Reply to candiegrlcane - Message ID#: 64180565

For real. Joaquin Phoenix is not entertaining at all.