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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1774563

Okay...

I'm going to bump this thread with a new question:

What does Jet really want? For example, I tend to think that he wants to have a family, even if it isn't a traditional one, to care for. But, I'm sure that's only a small part of what he is looking for.

No grades on this one, just a little extra credit.
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

[ Edited ]

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1828468

I started to type a response to your question, scoob, when I began thinking again about Jet's relationship with Alisa. From what we learn of that relationship through her, we are to believe that Jet would say "jump" and she said "how high?" Regardless of how much truth there was to that--and I tend to think Alisa may be something of a drama queen, not to mention a bit flakey--juxtapose that relationship with Jet's relationship to the Bebop crew, over whom he has no control. Every single one of them has an extremely dynamic personality, and their behavior is, a good amount of the time, well out of Jet's hands. And of course, we already discussed the amount of fretting that Jet does. So should we assume he would prefer to recreate a relationship along the lines of what he had with Alisa? To wit, the buck stops at Jet's unequivocally good sense.
 
More than anything else, I feel that Jet probably longs for a return to constancy. The bounty hunter shtick almost comes off as though he is hiding from himself, giving himself an excuse not to form any substantial ties (which of course he does anyway). In the end, Jet just wants somebody about whom he can care, and who will let him care.

Message Edited by WatcherUatu on 03-21-2004 07:08 PM

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GinaSzanboti
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to R.I.P.WatcherUatu - Message ID#: 1828932

Scoobdog sez: "So, he can not act with the same impunity that he could before: the Black Dog name he constantly has replaced on him is one that, in his heart, he no longer truly identifies with."

I don't think I quite buy that. When he's first called that in front of Faye and Spike, his reaction is kind of a mix of embarrassment at having that corny nickname revealed to them, and nostalgia for the life it harkens back to. But later when he's going after Alysa and her boytoy, he seems to claim it as who he is, for better or worse. If I remember right, he uses it himself again in BD Serenade, again with that reluctant sense of "yeah, that's me alright."

Scoobdog also sez: "Furthermore, Spike and Faye are Jet's only means of support: without them, he would not be able to live this kind of life."

I'd argue with that as well. :smileyhappy: It has always sounded to me from Jet's occasional mutterings that he was on his own as a bounty hunter for at least long enough to get used to flying solo before he hooked up with Spike. He was doing well enough by himself to own not only the Bebop, but the Hammerhead, and I can't imagine either came cheap (maybe he used up some retirement/disability money). I would agree that they're his only means of emotional support though. Jet's grumblings aside, I think Spike was on the money in his parting shots to Jet in Jupiter Jazz I, which is why Jet gets so defensive about it.

On the other hand, I agree completely with Watcher about what Jet wants. Jet's always so chagrined whenever he admits to people from his past that he's now a bounty hunter. It's as though by leaving the ISSP to remain true to his sense of honor, he feels he's somehow still betrayed that, if to a lesser degree, by becoming a cowboy. It's not what he expected his life to become, but he sees no other practical choices before him.

I think after the series ends, he either becomes a private detective or goes into the repair business with Doohan. :smileywink:

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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to GinaSzanboti - Message ID#: 1836239

Watcher hit the nail on the head with "In the end, Jet just wants somebody about whom he can care [for], and who will let him care." As much as Alysa is played off to be different than Spike and gang, Jet is still essentially beholden to her as he is to them.

The truth is he can not be the same kind of Black Dog that he was when he was with the ISSP. Fad is the one who seems to be controlling the chase tactics as he and Jet pursue Udai for the first time, or at least it seems that way since Fad is the one who offers to head around front to trap the assassin. To me, that isn't so much of Fad having charge over Jet as it is Fad trying to facilitate the chase for Jet. Throughout the series, Jet's reputation is that of the "once he bites, he never let's go," but that wouldn't always be possible if there wasn't someone like Fad by his side to help corner the criminal. Police units are not unlike military units in that a team has to function in sync in order for the perp to be apprehended; one man can not do it all by himself. Jet tells Spike that he lost his arm by being too headstrong, which is basically the same thing as admitting that he didn't think about what would happen before he started the chase. Why would he? He had a partner to do some of that for him.

Of course, Fad's help was only on the more immediate level. In addition to him, Jet had the ISSP brass to tell him what crime to investigate. It stands to reason that Jet and Fad would not always be the only two detectives gathering evidence on a case, especially one involving an assassin, so information would arrive second hand. It isn's shown, but no officer goes into a pursuit without another unit (or units) to back him and his partner up. With the police, Jet has an army of support, but, once he leaves, those back-up units ae gone to him.

After the ISSP, Jet is now responsible for getting his own information. As the show progresses, Jet runs into situations where there is a moral dilemma attached with the pursuit. Yes, he does break out the nickname for his pursuit of Alysa's boyfriend, but he already knows that the guy is likely to be found innocent before the chase begins. Later on, when he leaves the chessmaster alone, it is just as much for the old man as it is for Ed; the fact that the gate corporation's greed was a contributing factor to the accident is not lost on Jet. In both cases, something takes precedence over Jet's task of pursuit, and this is not what he would have had to dealt with in the ISSP: he has to determine if he's justified in his pursuit before he can make the "kill." That's what I meant when I said that Jet could no longer pursue with impunity.

That's also why he needs Spike and Faye as support. Why was it so important for Spike to accompany Jet in his search for Faye in JJ p. II? That's because he needs someone to back him up. I don't think there's a better example of how Spike and Jet work together than in Asteroid Blues. While Spike is in pursuit of Asimov, Jet is relaying the pertinent information to him over the com and coming to his aid when the syndicate goons start to interfere. There is synergy when two men function as unit, taking on individual tasks in support of the whole, and Jet isn't a mercenary, he's a converted cop. It wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly go against all of his training when he adapts to his new way of life. Although he is certainly strong enough to have survived a little bit before he met up with Spike, I still think that he would not have lasted this long as a bounty hunter.

Lastly, what did you make of Jet expression as he pursued Alysa and her boyfriend (I'm too lazy right now to look up his name)? I'm not sure what I would call it, but, instead of determination, I saw what looked more like resign with a little bit of fatigue / weariness. Compare it to the face Jet has when he is pursuing Udai the first time. That's where I got the part about him not identifying with his nickname anymore. A dog is trained not to question its master, and for that reason dogs show a kind of determination in their pursuit that is not easily duplicated in a "free-thinking" human adult. I would say that Jet's expression in Ganymeade Elegy indicates just the opposite of determination, resignation.
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1190630

Jet pulls out one of the best quips on faye that I have ever heard. It's in Jamming with Edward , I believe, well anyway Faye grunts " you can never tell what a woman will do by looking at her" she then proceeds in piercing Jet's foot with her heel(ouch), After that Jet yelps in pain and says " SAME WITH A SNAKE!!!" pure comedic genius, even though it's a drama.
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1190630

If I must say my self, I am a proud member of the Jet Black Fan Club. He is greatly over looked in the show. Who else keeps Spike in line? Plus hes the Captain of Bebop, how could he not be cool? He's like the mother (in a fatherly way) of the ship, doing all the cooking and stuff. Plus I really enjoyed the two eps. the were centered around him. And hes got THE Arm, all cool men, have THE Arm, ex. Vash.  
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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to R.I.P.McGuirkfan - Message ID#: 1856227

Jet defintitely has his best exchanges with Faye. I think she tends to bring out the worst in him, in a good way, of course.

Welcome to the club space_cowgirl! Jet is just too complex a guy to be ignored, so here we are.
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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1857840

Another something to mull over:

What does Jet think about Feng Shui and, by extension, universality in general? Religion isn't a topic that ever comes up in Cowboy Bebop other than the obvious religious imagery that is incorporated throughout the show. Boogie Woogie is the only episode where we get to see any of the crew members on a "faith journey" (in the mystical sense) and it just happens to be Jet.
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

[ Edited ]

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1868551

considering his preoccupation with a lot of asian things... the folklore and bonsai, for example, i'd say that feng shui is probably the next logical thing that he's interested in.

jet also seems to ponder more about life and fate in general, compared to the rest of the bebop crew. and judging by how he tries to live his life, especially after the ISSP, it's not really a far stretch that he's pretty involved in religious thoughts, although perhaps it's not necessarily religion that he's after, more like trying to find possible answers to all that he's seen in life.

and jet in particular, seems more open to all manner of ideas, especially the intangible ones. perhaps he's been through enough experiences that makes him like that, and maybe it's just an age thing... to me it looks like the rest of the crew is still in the grip of whatever they were trying to overcome - spike with julia and the syndicate, faye with her memories while ed is just too young - but jet has been through an experience that changed his life, and seems like he's able to see past the direct implications of that incident; while in the case of spike and faye, their troubles are not over yet.

jet too, seems to subscribe to the idea of letting bygones be bygones... it's like one chapter in his life has closed, and he's moving on to the next.

Message Edited by belle_mort on 03-23-2004 04:21 AM

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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to belle_mort - Message ID#: 1869047

I'm going to have to disagree with the suggested religious implications in "Boogie Woogie Feng Shui". I really don't see it. If anything, I see rather a denial of fate, and an affirmation of free will.

[POSSIBLE SPOILERS]

If you recall, though Maifa supposedly finds Jet at her father's grave through Universal Feng Shui, the actual hunt for the Sunstone (not sure that's the right name, but it's a hunk of Earth's moon) takes the form of good old fashion footwork, with Jet and Maifa going from place to place, talking to people, and then the interpretation of a riddle left by her father as they stand atop a high building. The stone then leads them to her father because it resonates with another stone in his possession (quantum particle entanglement, perhaps?).

Her father at first claims that he has used Universal Feng Shui to bring Jet and Maifa to him, but Jet flatly contradicts this, telling him it was actually Maifa's drive and will to find her father that brought them to him, not Feng Shui.

I don't see much religious conviction in Jet, but rather a brand of rough and ready humanism, and the fundamental belief that individuals can and do make the only differences in the universe that are ever made.

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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to R.I.P.SolomonMao - Message ID#: 1872609

I'm going to agree with SolomonMao on this. Jet is more of a conventional adventurer than a spiritual adventurer. Sort of like Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark or Temple of Doom (not so much in Last Crusade). Yes, Indy was embarking on journeys of patent spiritual significance, but he wasn't doing it for spiritual reasons. In Temple of Doom in particular he makes the statement to Short Round that all he cares about is "fortune and glory", and at that point in the film, it really is all that he cares about. In both films he has a profound religious epiphany during the climax, but even at that, it doesn't quite change his character's basic drive.

Jet is, I would say, detached from the...I don't know what you want to call it...subtext of his journeys. His reward is the satisfaction of seeing something through from beginning to an unsure and curiousity-inspiring end. Why does he go through all of that trouble to locate a Beta deck, for example? Why does he do all the legwork to track down Radical Edward when his partner finds it so boring that he won't help? It is simply his nature to want to solve mysteries. Of course, you could make the point that life is a mystery, and Jet may be constantly engaged in attempting to unravel that. But I find him to be too grounded as a character to overthink the alleged greater meaning behind things. Jet likes things he can explain. He is very straight-forward in the way he lives his life, or tries to be--hence the reason he can't seem to wrap his mind around Faye's penchant for irrationality or Spike's obsession with Julia.

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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

[ Edited ]

Reply to R.I.P.WatcherUatu - Message ID#: 1875681

Belle_Mort, SolomanMao, and WatcherUatu - You all have excellent points. You are absolutely right to point out that Jet is not a spiritual person; that is evident from the very first episode when...

[SPOILERS]

...he seems incredulous that Spike would see "old man Bull." Jet compares Feng Shui to fortune telling, perhaps showing a little ignorance. I also completely agree that Jet's forté is his practicality which results in humanism: the fact that his assessment of Maifa is based on her physical life rather than her spiritual life.

But, I felt that in this episode he was at the very least asked to recognize the difference between true spirituality and forced spirituality. At the very end he points out that the so called Feng Shui master had used Feng Shui for his own personal devices, and then he turns on this statement to point out that it was not the father who had manipulated the daughter into seeing him, it was the daughter who had willed herself and Jet to see the father. Jet may not have faith in Feng Shui, but he can not deny that Maifa does have an honest to goodness faith in it. It's a contrast: Maifa's use of Feng Shui is true belief because she believes in her heart that Feng Shui will lead her to her father; his use of Feng Shui is false belief because Feng Shui is only a tool for him to meet Malfi.

So we have a conversation that goes like this:

Jet - "In other words, you're saying you used Feng Shui reach us and bring us out here according to your will."
Paolo - "That's right."
Jet - "It's not right. You were never in control of this operation. Maifa is here because ... because she wanted to find you."

As the BeBop is approaching Paolo's location, Maifa confides in Jet that she doesn't know why her father contacted Jet instead of her. At this point, I think Jet understood the difference between the father and daughter was she believed that she could find him and he did not believe that, alone, she could. It's a very practical observation, but Jet is acknowledging the difference between belief and faith, the principle on which all religions are based.

Message Edited by scoobdog on 03-24-2004 12:23 AM

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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1190630

Time for another bump and inane question to boot.

Just how many eggs can Jet fit in his mouth?
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GinaSzanboti
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1890432

Wow, what a string of great posts! :smileyhappy:

I think it should be clarified that Feng Shui isn't a religion, anymore than astrology or aura reading is religion. These are tools used by some people who may have certain spiritual beliefs, but are not in themselves religion or spirituality.

I'd say Feng Shui is more of a pseudo-science, based on measurable energies (magnetism, e.g.), and, as presented in Bebop at least, observable effects. That sun stone didn't blow a hole in the space-time continuum on faith. :smileywink:


scoobdog wrote:
As the BeBop is approaching Paolo's location, Maifa confides in Jet that she doesn't know why her father contacted Jet instead of her. At this point, I think Jet understood the difference between the father and daughter was she believed that she could find him and he did not believe that, alone, she could. It's a very practical observation, but Jet is acknowledging the difference between belief and faith, the principle on which all religions are based.


Alone, she couldn't have found him, even if she'd known he was alive. No ship, for one thing. But the wild card in this is Ed, who was the one to figure out how to use the sun stone to connect with the subspace rift where Paolo was. Paolo didn't even know about her...unless you accept that his mastery of universal Feng Shui could have revealed her energies entangled with Jet's, which would make it imperative for him to contact Jet rather than Maifa.

I think the point was that although Feng Shui can reveal the best choices or point to unconsidered alternatives, as Maifa said, it doesn't fortell the future. It's up to people to make their future, but they can use Feng Shui to guide them. In other words, Paolo could only set things in motion, but he couldn't control Maifa's heart in this matter. If she hadn't wanted to find her father, there was nothing Paolo, with all his Feng Shui mastery, could have done to change that.

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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to GinaSzanboti - Message ID#: 1933790

I can't believe someone actually rated the egg question a five. :smileyhappy:



GinaSzanboti wrote:

I think the point was that although Feng Shui can reveal the best choices or point to unconsidered alternatives, as Maifa said, it doesn't fortell the future. It's up to people to make their future, but they can use Feng Shui to guide them. In other words, Paolo could only set things in motion, but he couldn't control Maifa's heart in this matter. If she hadn't wanted to find her father, there was nothing Paolo, with all his Feng Shui mastery, could have done to change that.




That's actually a much better way of saying it. Maifa's energetic pursuit doesn't really come from Feng Shui, it comes from her own desire to see her dad. That's something that can't be taught, like a religion or this pseudo-science, but it is something that can be masked by those two.

I'm probably stretching here (not that I don't with every post anyway), but Jet's point may be that Paolo's use of Feng Shui may have, in fact, hindered his efforts to reunite with Maifa. Was Jet chastising Paolo for using the convoluted plan to bring them there instead of being up front and simply going to them? Was Jet put off by Paolo's arrogant idea that he could make Jet bring Maifa to him? I'm really just trying to figure out why Jet would tell Paolo that using Feng Shui to lead them to his crippled ship was "not right."
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1190630

jet is not underrated,but Ein is,does anybody like his **bleep**.

i am going to start the first ever Ein fanclub and you bastards better join. 

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GinaSzanboti
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1944361

"Was Jet put off by Paolo's arrogant idea that he could make Jet bring Maifa to him? I'm really just trying to figure out why Jet would tell Paolo that using Feng Shui to lead them to his crippled ship was 'not right.'"

First off, his name is Pao. I forgot too and was going off your post, but it's time to set it right. :smileywink:

I think Jet was annoyed by Pao's arrogance, and maybe a little by his dependence on Feng Shui. The "not right" comment was just the flow of the dialog: "Are you saying you brought us here with Feng Shui?" "That's right." "No, that's not right." He could just as easily said, "Well you didn't," but I don't think there's any deeper moral judgment implied by his choice of words there. In this case "right" = "true."

Here's a question: it seems that Jet received the message from Pao before the hyperspace accident. Did Pao know that he was going to get stuck there? Did he create the rift with the sunstone in the first place to hide from the mob, and then get stuck accidentally? Or was his intention originally to meet Jet and hopefully Maifa on Mars "where the four gods meet" but was unable to do so because of the accident? If that's so, was he then just taking credit for bringing them to him once they found him? Bragging or self-delusion?

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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to GinaSzanboti - Message ID#: 1950378

Pao, huh? That makes much more sense; I didn't think he was Portuguese.

That's a very good question: I was always under the impression that Pao was waiting for them in the rift and they arrived a little too late to save him. Judging by what Jet said about leaving the syndicate, it would seem necessary to fake one's own death if one were to somehow escape.

Mafia is surprised that Jet knows about Pao's death as quickly as he does, so that suggests that Pao has not been "deceased" long enough for word to have spread. Also, the syndicate goons are still scoping out his gravesite, perhaps to make sure that the master really is dead. Pao would not be able to leave his hiding place so soon with the syndicate's gaze still fixed on his circumstances. Knowing this, or rather predicting this, I believe he needed to try and bring his daughter to him rather than for him to go seek her out, so he devised the sunstone scheme in advance of the accident. That he has his own sunstone strongly points to the fact that he knew that he needed a way for Jet and Mafia to find him without someone else figuring out what they were doing, and he did go through quite a bit to hide the other sunstone, so he must have done some planning before he left.

Whether or not he knew there was a possibility that they would not arrive in time to save him is anybody's guess. Its probably up to interpretation here, but I sensed that Pao was resigned to death when he finally met up with the BeBop. That could mean that he had given up hope of rescue, or it could mean that he never intended to be rescued in the first place. That he went to so much trouble to throw of the syndicate tells me that he wouldn't have had much hope of surviving long once he reemerged, but we don't see enough of Pao to make the absolute determination that he was, in effect, committing suicide. At any rate, he probably wasn't looking to much further than Maifa's arrival anyway.
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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

[ Edited ]

Reply to R.I.P.samuraixxx - Message ID#: 1946966

I am not a b*****d. My dad's just on a very long vacation to the north side of San Francisco Bay... (j/k)

Anyway, you could ask nicely.

Message Edited by scoobdog on 03-27-2004 12:15 AM

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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 1955531

*bump*
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 2029297

Another *bump* question. Why does Jet go to see Sitting Bull?
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 2059036

Good question, even Jet's not sure why he's went. I think it was like a last resort, while searching for some kind of answers about Spike and why he left. He remembered going there once before, with Spike
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GinaSzanboti
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 2059036



scoobdog wrote:
Another *bump* question. Why does Jet go to see Sitting Bull?


Desperation? To feel like he was doing something, anything, to back Spike up? Grasping at one last tenuous connection to Spike? A vain hope that for once Bull would give him more info about the situation than he had been able pry out of Spike, instead of being his usual cryptic self?

Whatever his conscious reasons, I think he got what he really wanted from that encounter, despite his irritated grumblings to the contrary. Namely, some reassurance that he hadn't failed Spike by not finding a way to back him up in this.


Btw, Scoob, it looks like you must have a fan out there yourself, to score a five on a bump post! ;D

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scoobdog
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to GinaSzanboti - Message ID#: 2083732

It wasn't you? And I was starting to feel so special too..

Maybe you can answer this question for me: Does Jet ever mention being in the "Special Forces" at any other time besides tonight (Honkey Tonk Woman)?
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Re: The Jet Black Fan Club

Reply to scoobdog - Message ID#: 2112407

Just a mild observation: apparently, Jet is student of Sun Tzu's The Art of War (Spike: "Don't give me that Art of War cr4p," as the fourth, unpredicted robber exits the bathroom in the opening sequence of the movie.) Is anyone familiar with this particular work? I was checking out websites on it, but I didn't have enough time to get the full gist of it.
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