Cowboy Bebop

[InuFan05]

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_Star_Wolf_ wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's heavily implied Spike dies too. His actions as well as the things he says at that point have me convinced that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's just on top of the blood loss and fatigue.

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My point exactly! Besides, just the way that everything plays out, from the star, to the way that the lyrics of the ending corresponded to everything that happened and was happening, to the send-off card, it just seems like he's a goner.

I certainly do want to hope that he survived, but the proof of his death is simply too strong.

[InuFan05]

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_Star_Wolf_ wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's heavily implied Spike dies too. His actions as well as the things he says at that point have me convinced that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's just on top of the blood loss and fatigue.

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My point exactly! Besides, just the way that everything plays out, from the star, to the way that the lyrics of the ending corresponded to everything that happened and was happening, to the send-off card, it just seems like he's a goner.

I certainly do want to hope that he survived, but the proof of his death is simply too strong.

[Ranlsa]

No, the proof of his LIVING is too strong. He's got a best friend who cares about him, only ONE star burned out (if everyone has a star, why didn;t TWO stars go out? NO, one star, ONE person died, and we KNOW Vicious died. He was hit right in the heart). Spike survived bweing thrown out a window, he survived that huge fight on the train with Vincent, how can he not survive a cut in the leg and a shot in the shoulder?

No one is SUPPOSED to die, and a true honest best friend would do everything in hiow power to make that happen! Jet and Spike are like brothers, if YOUR brother was going off on a dangerous mission that could kill him, wouldn;t it make sense you would try to stop him? The song could just be Spike finishing his mission and ready to live trhe REST of his LIFE in peace!

Too much evidence. Spike is not a goner, he's got a best friend, everything to live for, he's alive!

[Ranlsa]

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_Star_Wolf_ wrote:

I'm pretty sure that at that point that Jet was just going to let Spike do w/e. It wasn't the first time he tried to get through to him. There's a point where even a friend that close realizes they aren't going to get through to them and just lets them go.

I'm pretty sure it's heavily implied Spike dies too. His actions as well as the things he says at that point have me convinced that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's just on top of the blood loss and fatigue.

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No, it's NOT tyhe way it's supposed to be! 27 is too young to die, and even though Jet ried to get trhrough to him before this time it's different, more serious, he woukld follow him. That's what friends do!

DO you want to see the story?

[InuFan05]

How do you know another star didn't go out when Vicious died, but we just didn't see it, since everything that wasn't about Spike would be extraneous following his victory. They really wanted to make the final scene as poignant and epic as they could, as well as Spike-centered.

Spike's situation was far worse here, I'd say. He was definitely fatigued and had lost a lot of blood by the point he had arrived at the stairs at the end. Sure he has a lot of resolve and energy and would be able to go through a lot more than the average human, but then again, everything he went through would be too much, even for him.

Sure, Jet (and even Faye) would be beyond upset with Spike's decision. They did try to stop him after all. But he just had to go, and not even their will could do anything to stop him.

When the song says "Life is just a dream" it's a dead give away that it truly wasn't Spike's reality and that until he died he had been asleep. He finally gained consciousness of what's going on, more awareness, after passing.

Like I said, it can go any way, since it's open-ended, but I personally feel like his death is more plausible.

But I sure do hate it if it really did happen. He's too cool to die.

[_Star_Wolf_]

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InuFan05 wrote:

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_Star_Wolf_ wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's heavily implied Spike dies too. His actions as well as the things he says at that point have me convinced that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's just on top of the blood loss and fatigue.

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My point exactly! Besides, just the way that everything plays out, from the star, to the way that the lyrics of the ending corresponded to everything that happened and was happening, to the send-off card, it just seems like he's a goner.

I certainly do want to hope that he survived, but the proof of his death is simply too strong.

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I do think they left it open-ended, I will give it that. I just think there is more evidence to point to his death rather than survival. I think he most likely wanted to die at that point too. He was ready to end everything and "wake up"

[_Star_Wolf_]

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InuFan05 wrote:
How do you know another star didn't go out when Vicious died, but we just didn't see it, since everything that wasn't about Spike would be extraneous following his victory. They really wanted to make the final scene as poignant and epic as they could, as well as Spike-centered.

Spike's situation was far worse here, I'd say. He was definitely fatigued and had lost a lot of blood by the point he had arrived at the stairs at the end. Sure he has a lot of resolve and energy and would be able to go through a lot more than the average human, but then again, everything he went through would be too much, even for him.

Sure, Jet (and even Faye) would be beyond upset with Spike's decision. They did try to stop him after all. But he just had to go, and not even their will could do anything to stop him.

When the song says "Life is just a dream" it's a dead give away that it truly wasn't Spike's reality and that until he died he had been asleep. He finally gained consciousness of what's going on, more awareness, after passing.

Like I said, it can go any way, since it's open-ended, but I personally feel like his death is more plausible.

But I sure do hate it if it really did happen. He's too cool to die.

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[Ranlsa]

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InuFan05 wrote:
How do you know another star didn't go out when Vicious died, but we just didn't see it, since everything that wasn't about Spike would be extraneous following his victory. They really wanted to make the final scene as poignant and epic as they could, as well as Spike-centered.

Spike's situation was far worse here, I'd say. He was definitely fatigued and had lost a lot of blood by the point he had arrived at the stairs at the end. Sure he has a lot of resolve and energy and would be able to go through a lot more than the average human, but then again, everything he went through would be too much, even for him.

Sure, Jet (and even Faye) would be beyond upset with Spike's decision. They did try to stop him after all. But he just had to go, and not even their will could do anything to stop him.

When the song says "Life is just a dream" it's a dead give away that it truly wasn't Spike's reality and that until he died he had been asleep. He finally gained consciousness of what's going on, more awareness, after passing.

Like I said, it can go any way, since it's open-ended, but I personally feel like his death is more plausible.

But I sure do hate it if it really did happen. He's too cool to die.

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And how do you know MY theory isn;t right and Jet was secretly following him in the Hammerhead and he went to Spike the MINUTE he fell to pick him up and take him to the hospital and we just didn;t see THAT part? Hmm?

How do you know that's what the song meant? Maybe Spike;'s life wuith Julia was a dream and now that she's been killed and he avenged her he can wake up and go on with the rest of his life?

You sia dit yourself! Spike didn;t die cause SPIKE'S TOO **beast** COOL TO DIE!! HE DIDN;T DIE, HE;S TOO AWESOME, TOO COOL, HAS A BEST FRIEND WHO HELPED HIM...DIDN;T HAPPEN!

I offer you exhibit A, thank you:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7008982/1/The_Journey_Home

[Ranlsa]

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I do think they left it open-ended, I will give it that. I just think there is more evidence to point to his death rather than survival. I think he most likely wanted to die at that point too. He was ready to end everything and "wake up"

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Why would he want to die when he whas a best friend and a home to go to? Those two things alone are a good enough reason to live!

[InuFan05]

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Ranlsa wrote:

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InuFan05 wrote:
How do you know another star didn't go out when Vicious died, but we just didn't see it, since everything that wasn't about Spike would be extraneous following his victory. They really wanted to make the final scene as poignant and epic as they could, as well as Spike-centered.

Spike's situation was far worse here, I'd say. He was definitely fatigued and had lost a lot of blood by the point he had arrived at the stairs at the end. Sure he has a lot of resolve and energy and would be able to go through a lot more than the average human, but then again, everything he went through would be too much, even for him.

Sure, Jet (and even Faye) would be beyond upset with Spike's decision. They did try to stop him after all. But he just had to go, and not even their will could do anything to stop him.

When the song says "Life is just a dream" it's a dead give away that it truly wasn't Spike's reality and that until he died he had been asleep. He finally gained consciousness of what's going on, more awareness, after passing.

Like I said, it can go any way, since it's open-ended, but I personally feel like his death is more plausible.

But I sure do hate it if it really did happen. He's too cool to die.

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And how do you know MY theory isn;t right and Jet was secretly following him in the Hammerhead and he went to Spike the MINUTE he fell to pick him up and take him to the hospital and we just didn;t see THAT part? Hmm?

How do you know that's what the song meant? Maybe Spike;'s life wuith Julia was a dream and now that she's been killed and he avenged her he can wake up and go on with the rest of his life?

You sia dit yourself! Spike didn;t die cause SPIKE'S TOO **beast** COOL TO DIE!! HE DIDN;T DIE, HE;S TOO AWESOME, TOO COOL, HAS A BEST FRIEND WHO HELPED HIM...DIDN;T HAPPEN!

I offer you exhibit A, thank you:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7008982/1/The_Journey_Home

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I'm not entirely throwing away your theory, I'm just saying I feel that there's more evidence, at least the way I see it, for his death. There's a chance you're right. It's open-ended after all.

I'm not saying that Jet wasn't there. As I said before and you've made a point of saying, Jet and Faye were his friends; they loved him. They didn't want to see him just risk his life and not return to them ever again. There's a chance they were there following him; like I said before during the montage before the final confrontation it seemed as if they could've been considering it, at least based on their actions and expressions. But it's not certain. Besides, why would the final shots only feature Spike lying face flat and unconscious when they could've shown anything else?

I don't think Spike moving on would have been a question of merely avenging Julia's death; it would've still been a loss, since they had so much together. It wouldn't be as simple as saying, "He's dead. It's over. Let's walk away from everything. Yay! Party!" I'm pretty sure you can think of plenty of other stories, like Durarara!!, where the past doesn't easily leave a person, or InuYasha, where attachment to a person from the past is still guiding their actions. I do acknowledge that prior to him collapsing on the stairs, Spike and Julia both say that it was a dream. I clearly remember that scene. But it goes beyond that. When you dream, you're in this universe that's constructed by your mind, reality, and experiences. Similarly, they were both confined by the difficuties surrounding their romance. With death, they were released and allowed to be free and have a new reality. They've woken up from the challenges they faced and can now be together in peace.  

Ultimately, life is a dream though. You're trapped in a strange reality that is shaped by different stimuli and experiences and your personal reactions to them. However, when you die, it's like you're woken up. You're not part of that consciousness, but of a totally different one. You realize that life as you see it is totally different and temporary, much like a dream.

[film_nut]

Here's the thing. I think Ranisa, you're severely misinterpreting Jet and Spike's friendship, honestly. They're partners, would I go so far as to say "brothers"? Probably not. They're never shown being as close as that word implies. At the beginning of the series their relationship is practically "strictly business" and Spike irritates Jet more than anything with his flashy tactics and cocky attitude. Sure they grow closer over the course of the series, but so also does their respect for one another. They're both big boys, capable of dealing with their own problems. Did Spike go after Jet in Black Dog Serenade even though it could have been just as risky a situation as Spike's? No. Spike respected Jet enough to let him deal with his own past. Why would Jet not do Spike the same courtesy?

ALSO. You honestly think the star at the end is Vicious? Really? So, we see this big dramatic battle. Vicious drops to the ground and then nothing. We never actually see his body again, he gets absolutely no send off. Spike however makes it a couple steps before wee see him make the "Bang..." and then collapse. But you expect me to buy that the whole sequence after that, with the (4+ minute long!) song and the long pan skywards, is all to show the audience Vicious' star falling? Even after they've given us the precendent of a star falling for a good guy (Gren), in Jupiter Jazz? What kind of story-teller would do that? It makes no sense.

And "Spike's too badass to die"? Really. Spike is also a fictional character. The writers could have given him terminal brain cancer if they wanted (would have been an odd twist, but still). He can be killed off whenever and however they choose.

If you want to believe Spike lived, feel free. It's open-ended, Watanabe's never said one or the other, but you have to be able to see why from a narrative aspect, there's much more that the audience is actually shown to imply that he dies.

(Another little side thought I just had. Throughout the series, we never see them go to a hospital. Spike and Jet always self-treat or find a back-alley doctor, especially for gunshot wounds. I would think that means 2071 Mars laws are similar to laws today in the States: gunshot wounds have to be reported to the police and the excuse, "Oh, I fell on a bullet" isn't gonna cut it. Spike's not getting away with storming the Red Dragon headquarters and killing a bunch of mofos. Particualarly if they find out his previous association with them and that he's on the run after faking his death. There's always the chance that the police are corrupt or incompetant, but if it's the former. who's got the kind of money that Spike would need to pay off a cop, and would give it to him without requiring something in return? You say "Jet takes him to the hospital" likes that the end-all be-all of your argument, but there's a lot that could still go wrong.)

[No_Soup_For_You]

They're obviously going to keep living the dream.

[RPD]

I wonder if Jet will end up hittin' it...

[HellzWindStaff]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

  And if one believes Vicious died too, why didn't two stars fade out at the end?  Gren got a falling star, wouldn't Vicious get one too?  Only one star faded (didn't fall), so....

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......Vicious didn't deserve a star......

......Let alone a fallen star......