Death Note

[ScV]

Light Yagami's final testimony:

"Somebody has to do this"

"When I first got that notebook all those years ago I knew I had to do it"

"No, I was the only one who could"

"I understood killing people was a crime"

"THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY"

"THE WORLD HAD TO BE FIXED"

"THE PURPOSE GIVEN TO ME"

"Only I could do it"

"WHO ELSE COULD OF DONE IT AND COME THIS FAR?"

"WOULD THEY OF KEPT GOING?"

"The only who can create a new world is me"

Nate Rivers or (N's)  response:

"NO"

"Your just a mass murderer Light Yagami"

"And this notebook is the deadliest weapon of mass murder in the history of mankind"

"You yielded to the power of the Shimigami and the notebook"

"And you have confused yourself with a god"

"In the end you are nothing more then a crazy serial killer"

"Thats all you are"

"Nothing more, and nothing less"

Is this an adequate responde from N? Does it set things straight? Or it is just another point of view, one that direactly opposes Light Yagami, but prehaps, it is no less right or wrong in the end.

My Question and the focus of this discussion; Could anyone else of done what Light did? Knowing fully that this path would likely lead to his dismise?

Originally Light wrote names in the deathnote with the thought that he would be devinely punished. Infact, when he met ryuk he fully expected to be killed for his "Evil" behavior. 

Even if Light Yagami Yielded to the power of the deathnote, do you not think he ended up doing good with it? Think of all the evil criminals that were killed. Think of the that girl in episode two (or one I forget) who probably was going to be raped and or killed by that biker gang. Was she not worth it? Were a few innoscent people not worth it?

In relation to todays world, how many of you support the death penalty? The death penalty is a good thing. Atleast most of you would agree to that. But if one innoscent wholesome person has to die so that hundreds of rotten vermin can be eliminated and the world can be a better place; is that so wrong?

Prehaps Light Yagami was "evil" and "bad". But the legacy of the kira would live on for generations, and more importantly light truely became a god, but he also became a victim of the very thing he was trying to destroy. It was very ironic.

Light succeeded in creationg a perfect world. Well, Atleast for that time period, prehaps the next one hundred years or so, possibly even longer, but in the end he sacraficed his humanity an his soul.

Was it worth it? Could you do it? Could you sacrafice everything so that the world could move on? Because the world in the deathnote deffiently moved on. There is no doubt in my mind of that.

Prehaps Light was a victim of being a human being. A flawed vessel that is easily corrupted, but could of anyone else done what he did? 

Light yagami did accomplish something and Kira did win; even if Light died.

Your thoughts?

[LDK_SPARDA]

I would have done it. Then when told I was a mass murderer. I would look back and reply, "Oh, really? Tell me X_______, Is the world better off with no wars? Is the world better off with no crime? Tell me... Why do we need cops when we have gods to walk among us, giving the select few to run the world the way they want to run it. Did you know Justice has been served? Thanks to this book?"

[ScV]

Good Response. I look forward to more.

 But just keep in mind, its Light huburous, or his goal of becoming a god that ultimately led to his downfall. 

In my opinion atleast.

So when you use the word god it seems, hmmm, hypocritical?

Who else can decided if another human is fit to live but another human right?

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Great post!  I've been thinking about your questions a lot.  Heck I think everyone who watches this does to some extent.  Here is what I think:

I know the temptation would be very strong, and if I had one, I could see myself maybe writing the name a certain individual who got off scott free after killing her child.  Whether I would go through with it is another story.  I don't think so, but I don't know.  I mean,  you have something like that, you'd want to see if it was real, right?  If it wasn't, no harm done.  If it WAS, it would be change of underwear time, and I don't know if I would be able to live with myself afterwards, because even though I'm not a killer, I have little problem with the thought of ventilating someone who was actively trying to kill or harm me or someone around me.  Given no other choice, that IS an option.

As for the death penalty, I'm up in the air about it.  I don't like it and wish we didn't have it (I live in a state that has it), but maybe only in certain circumstances (cop killers, child killers, serial killers, I don't know).  Personally I would be very happy if they abolished it, but the fact that we have it doesn't cause me a lot of stress, you know?

Near's response to Light's justification of his actions I thought were pretty much all he could say, I think.  He wasn't interested in getting into a philosophical discussion with him about it.  Light wrote those names in the book knowing they were going to die, which does make him a mass murderer, and he did look and sound rather crazy, especially calling himself a god.

Light's legacy is basically the followers that were devoted to him.  The manga had a chapter that followed Light's death that took place a year later.  Everything had gone back to the way things were before the death note entered the world, so he didn't make any lasting worldwide changes at all.  

[Meilag32]

No, Near's response was wrong.  It shows that he never understood the full picture and was merely parroting what he thought L Lawliet would say.  I'd like to think that Lawliet himself understood it, but had some moral reasons or whatever and opposed it.  But I've been doubting that recently.  The whole point of Light's method versus your average citizen's method is that in Light's case, the ends justified the means.  In a different age, everyone would laud him as a hero.  But in our age, it's all about every single person achieving perfect harmony and happiness so that no one was ever inconvenienced in any way.  This is, of course, impossible.  Yet so many people try and cling to this "sinking ship". 

Light understood that, in order for the majority of people in the world to achieve happiness, a minority would have to be...removed...for the good or the rest and to educate that rest and put them in line, whether they want to or not.  Not everyone can be happy, and not everyone will agree with the path taken to get to a lasting peace.  The problem is that harsh methods must be taken.  Take Occupy Wall Street.  No matter how large they get or how many cities they expand to; they aren't willing to get their hands dirty to beat their enemies.  Meanwhile, their enemies are more than willing to do what needs to be done.  Hell, it's what they did to get where they are. 

Could I do it?  Yes, I think so.  If I had a Death Note, I predict the world would take a drastic change.  Even quicker than Light since Ls don't exist in the real world.  There are always people like Light and me.  But People like L just aren't real.  And if they are, they never achieve the level of status that L did.  That level of altruistic person is far too humble to ever gain a position where they could affect real positive change from within the system.  That's why it's up to people like me to create change from without rather than from within. 

[Bad_Witch]

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would try to do what Light did, just as there are people who would do what the Yotsaba Kira did with it. If your asking if they could get as far as Light....that would depend on the person. I doubt Light would be the only one in the world who could go that far with it, but he is one of the few who could.

Of course he did good with it...noone really questions that. His means on the other hand are a different matter. Comparing the near rape victim to the faceless would be victims isn't a fair comparison. Most people would say if you had the power to stop it from happening, especially when you see it happening, than you should...but to save someone from a crime that might happen is different. One can never know with hundred percent certainty that a someone would commit a crime, and if that crime wasn't committed...than there's no victim.

I firmly believe some people just need to die.

Could I do it? Sure. Would it be worth it? No, but then if I ever got a death note, changing the world wouldn't be high on my list of priorities.

[Meilag32]

I shudder to think if you got a Death Note.  Far too random in your actions.  How am I supposed to take advantage of that?

[Bad_Witch]

You don't.

*laughs*

Just as planned.

[Meilag32]

I'd just have to take you out...

...to a fancy restaurtant.  And convince you to see things my way. 

[Bad_Witch]

I like orchids, jewelery with smallish stones (nothing big and gaudy) of emeralds and/or sapphires, and chocolate covered carmels

[Meilag32]

So I could really buy your allegiance and the Death Note with such petty trinkets?  And here I figured I was just giving you one final meal before I'd kidnap you, since I assumed I could never turn you. 

[Bad_Witch]

Of course not I was just letting you know what to bring to dinner. How else do you think you could get me to show up?

And kidnap me. Please, you might be dead before I get back from powdering my nose. Sooner if I don't see any orchids, chocolates, and pretty little boxes of jewelery waiting for me at the table.

[Meilag32]

Technically I could bring all that stuff.  I've never bought jewelry bought I could definitely afford it.  It's good to know that would lure you out. 

And even if it was actually me there to meet you, do you really think you'd be allowed to go powder your nose?  You'd already be constantly tracked by multiple rifles.  And the restaurant would already be wired to blow, as a last resort.  Of course, if you decided to ally with me, none of that would be necessary.

[lupinfan83]

I think Near had it completely right. Light was just a fad, he was no God. He was a kid with a magnifying glass, getting pleasure out killing things he saw as mere bugs. I think there are people out there that would use the death note like Light did, but I think there are alot more who would use a death note for more selfish reasons.

[Meilag32]

If that's what you truly think then you never understood Light.  You might have understood Higuchi, but not Light. 

And you say Light wasn't God because he "was a kid with a magnifying glass, getting pleasure out killing things he saw as mere bugs"?  But that is God.  What else would he be?  Why do all these innocent people die if he acts differently from that?  Face it, if God exists, he's just as mean, if not more so.  

[lupinfan83]

Light at best was a band-aid. Once people realized Kira was gone, the world went back to the way it was. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and for Light I can't think of a better hell than fading into Mu/nothingness.And as for God being mean, how can you appreciate happiness without sadness, peace without violence?

[Meilag32]

Since he lost, yeah.  But if won, it would be a permanent solution.  So since criminals realized they couldn't be caught anymore and went back to what they were doing, that makes Light bad?  It makes society the evil one for not being able to solve it's own problems. 

Yes, many of the worst things imaginable were done with the best of intentions.  But the result of Light's actions was a 70% reduction in world crime, which meant a safer and happier place for people like you who would never do evil or harm others.  Whereas, history is littered with people who claimed they had good intentions but who only ended up killing millions of innocent civilians.  And you still say Light is worse?

Everyone went to Mu.  So it wasn't Hell.  Light went to Mu, L went to Mu, Soichiro went to Mu, Mello went to Mu, once they die of natural causes or whatever, everyone else presented in the series also went to Mu.  The Death Note series, Mu isn't so much a punishment, it's just the natural progression.  

I'm sure all those millions upon millions upon millions of people really appreciate your reasoning.  Especially all the newborn infants born into the world only to die days, weeks, or months later.  What did they get? 

[Bad_Witch]

How would winning be a permanent solution? Maybe I missed it, but where in the rules was the secret to immortality? Eventually Light would die, and what would happened to the world then? Who would carry on? Mikami? If anything, as close to Light's ideals as he was, Mikami was a liability. One Light would most likely rid himself of once Near and everyone was dealt with.

The chance of Light actually finding someone who could on once he died is slim. Even more so for that to carry on for the rest of human existence. Lupin's right. Light is/was/could only be a band-aid. Over the course of human existence, Kira would eventually become nothing more than a footnote on history, and depending on who was writing that history Kira could just as easily be remembered as a villian or a hero.

Also, I would expect nothing less You better bring a good argument.

[Meilag32]

Oh, I'm sure with a lifetime to search for one, a proper successor would be found.  Hell, he found Mikami easily enough.  And besides, he might not even need one.  With a whole lifetime without crime under the watchful eye of Kira, the world would have been vastly changed from what it is now.  You might counter that after Light died it quickly went back to the way it was, but the world hadn't gone through the metamorphosis that Light would put it through.  Even after Light died of natural causes or whatever, the world probably could never go back to way it was before Kira.  The whole idea of governments and politics will have radically changed. Society would be on a different level from what you know now.  Anyone who would even remember the old would be too old to change it back.  The people who would inherit the world would be the ones who only knew the world under Kira's care. 

And even if the world Light built would crumble after he died, it still wouldn't be able to go back to what it originally was.  It would be something new, neither the old rotten world we have nor the one built by Kira, it would be different and perhaps that would be enough.  Historians would remember Kira as a hero or a villain, well maybe as a hero.  They would remember him as the instrument that changed the course of human civilization. 

In this case, it's hard to bring an argument that has actual, factual evidence to support it.  Hypotheticals are difficult aren't they?  You can't have a "bad" argument.

[Bad_Witch]

Optimistic are we? You really expect human nature to change that much? In such a short time span as a life time? The only change Light could truly make was killing everyone who committed a crime and didn't live to his ideals. Once dead, someone would commit a crime, survive, then another, and another, and another etc. People would eventually figure out that Kira wasn't around and go back to basic human nature. Light would need someone to carry on, not just after his immediate death but for the remainder of human existence. Even if he found someone, another would be needed to take that one's place.

You seem to assume that whatever came next would at least be better off after Kira. I'm not so sure. I just don't see basic human nature changing that much in such a short time. The same motivators for the crime we have now would come back and humans being humans would return to committing those crimes of passion, greed, wrath, etc.

Awww, that's cute. You thought I meant to bring a good agrument for this. No, I meant you better bring a good argument to dinner

I actually enjoy hypotheticals more. Nothing ruins a "good" argument more than facts

[Meilag32]

What about our current society mirrors what people want?  Human nature is follow the herd.  Or at least, that's true for most people.  And you guys keep saying that everyone would hate Light's world.  That's just not true.  And do really think Light would just kill criminals?  That that was the endgame?  A new world wouldn't simply mean one with less crime.  Seriously, if Kira is in control, what use would such things as governments or armies be?  There would definitely be a lot of fat-trimming.  And you miss the point with the whole crime thing.  You don't need to punish everybody.  Eventually Kira wouldn't need to do anything since people wouldn't be sure if he's watching or not.  Would you take that risk?  Who would be the one to take the first plunge and commit a major crime knowing that if Kira's still around, they die.  But I wasn't really talking about the crime aspect.  I was talking more about how Light would reshape society, govts, and politics. 

Again, you're stuck on the crime.  I'm thinking on a much grander scale.  I'm not saying there wouldn't be crime.  I'm saying that the world would have changed into something else.  The way govts run, the way corporations run, that would all have been torn down during Kira's reign.  And like I said, anybody old enough to remember pre-Kira times would be in their 80s, too old to affect change anymore.  Governments, businesses, the U.N., etc. would all be reborn from people who only knew living in a world with Kira.  That would totally change the structure of civilization. 

Maybe I'm not explaining it very well , you didn't seem to pick up on the point I was trying to make. 

No, I never said your argument was good.  In fact, I thinking of throwing in a snide insult concerning it.  I decided against it.  Maybe I should have.

They're not bad.  But they don't accomplish anything neither side is right nor wrong.  You end up back where you began. 

[Bad_Witch]

You answered your own question. Human nature is following the herd, not making waves,  etc. Current society mirrors the illusions that people want. Most people believe they are safe, have freedom, or whatever else they convince themselves with to get through the day.  Problem arise when reality pokes through those illusions. People don't actually care how the world is run unless it affects them. What we have right now is reality poking through the illusion, people being forced to face ugly truths, and because they don't have any real idea of what's going on, how it got there, or how to fix, they migrate to like-minded others. Now there are some exceptions to the rule, as there always are, but the vast majority fall into this.

When did I say everyone would hate Light's world? I realize there will be some people who will not only fully embrace Light's world, but will actually enjoy it. No, I don't think Light would merely kill criminals. I know he had other plans, but those plans weren't really given any depth. We know Light actively "persuded" governments...well just the U.S., to give in to him and he most likely would continue to do so but any discussion would be nothing more than conjucture. We can't know how Light would have continued with his plans.

I think you're missing the point about crime. Do you really think every single person would just stop? Just because they can't be sure Kira was watching? Everyone knows that Kira needs a face and a name to punish and there is always someone who thinks they can beat the game. Any serious criminals would take extra measures to ensure they aren't connected to any crimes. I have yet to meet anyone who thinks they will be caught. Each time someone tries and gets caught Kira would punish them. Once the punishments stop coming, more people would get bold. You also seem to be assuming Light has many years left to him to make this change in the world. We have no idea how long Light would live if he had won. Sixty years of change is different than just another five or ten.

Okay, the grander scale. I don't see Light making such lasting changes. You're dealing with absolutes. 100% of the governments would completely bend to Kira? Not a single government would try to hid an army, even a small one? Every single business would magical clean up its act? Wait, that might be true. Most business to magically rid themselves of any damning evidence...so you might have a point. Of course, that doesn't mean I don't have one either. Where there's money to be made, there is ways a way of maximizing the profits. I don't see this sweeping change to society that you do...especially one that is lasting. Some changes would happen of course, but once Kira's gone it will eventually go back to normal.

I got the point, I just don't see the absolutes you're dealing with. Even in a hypothetical argument, the absolute is to much. Would society change? Sure. Would it be lasting? No. Light's actions do nothing to change human nature. This society, as in all societies, is run by people. Everything that happens is directly related to that nature...whether good or bad. I see some change that would be swept away. A few people would survive to parrot Kira's ideals, but they wouldn't be anything more than those who stand on street corners claiming the world is ending. Any lasting change would be insignificant.

My argument comment was supposed to be related to you trying to convince me to follow you plan....over dinner...after I got a notebook. It wasn't supposed to relate to this. That's my fault. I should have made that clearer.

Rarely does any argument discussion accomplish anything. Everyone has their own opinions, and even when presented with facts, rarely want to change them. You always end up where you began.

[Meilag32]

Current society isn't for the masses anymore.  And they're starting to realize it.  But the real question is why is human nature even being discussed?  I never said that no crimes would ever be committed under Kira.  Just the vast majority would be stopped, and that would be enough. 

And I'm saying that it society could never go back to normal if Light was allowed to live is full life and be Kira the entire time.  The people that knew how to shape the world into what is currently is would be dead.  People may try to remake it into what it was before Kira, if they wanted to.  But I don't think they could.  At least they couldn't make it exactly the same, which in itself is a step in the right direction.  Nor am I talking about them keeping the world Kira made. 

Am I dealing more in absolutes?  Perhaps.  I'm reminded of a quote about how only Sith deal in absolutes.  It makes me smile.  But if we're dealing with hypotheticals, the absolute can't be wrong.  Since it's a hypothetical question, no answer or scenario can be wrong since there is always a chance that each scenario would be right under certain circumstances.

Oh, we're still talking about dinner?  You had jumped in on a comment I had made to Lupin, which was what this was all about.  I thought we had fully switched topics. 

As for dinner, I'm thinking Italian.  Or maybe Chinese, Mexicans not bad either.  And a good Hibachi is always nice.  As long as it isn't a steakhouse.  I hate continental food like steak. 

As for what I'd say, I don't think it would matter.  Aside from telling you that you could do what you want as long as I get what I want (which still sort of implies a threat), I don't think anything I say would persuade you.  The dinner is most likely a ploy to get you away from those you care for.  I couldn't threaten to kill you.  That wouldn't work on you.  But I could threaten to kill the ones you love.  Do what I want or they die.  I suddenly die and they die.  You kill yourself or destroy the Notebook or hide it so I can never find it, they die.

[Bad_Witch]

Society is rarely for the masses. The fact that people are waking up to that merely proves that people enjoy their illusions of the world. That is human nature, and the reason I bring it up is because without changing that nature no real change can be made. Anything that happens is either a band-aid or a distraction. I view kira as more of a distraction, and a bad one at that. If Light is unable to carryon after death, through some chosen one, the first criminal will lead the way. Not just in reintroducing crimes to the world, but the world's inability to combat those crimes. As you stated the armies of the world would not be necessary under Kira and the police would become obsolete. With no police, crime could easily rise quickly and the first country to build an army would have an advantage. The immediate changes can be far worse than then rotten world Light was trying to fix, and getting them back to Kira's reign would be impossible. It doesn't, nor do I see as, a step in the right direction and more likely a step backward in history.

Of course, nothing can be wrong. Just as nothing can be right. But one view can be more right than another. You would side with the Sith. Remember though...in the end they lost.

I admitted that was my fault. At the time, I could easily see how I wanted it to be read, but after coming back I realized my mistake. So yeah, it was still dinner. I vote for either Italian or Chinese.

I figured it would play out like that. I'd just have to buy my time, lead you along, and finally eliminate you. That isn't to say I couldn't be persuaded without all that. I don't have any desire to change the world or whatever, but if its interesting enough I just might tag along. *shrugs* I would probably depend on my mood. I definately wouldn't kill myself.

[lupinfan83]

Lead him on? If there was only 1 death note, why would you let him any where near it? I think he would do anything to ge that power and you trying to lead him on will get you killed