Death Note

[Meilag32]

Everyone dying would have made it less depressing for me.  Light winning would have definitely helped. 

But almost all anime endings depress me to some degree.  It's probably partly because I don't want it to end. 

[Meilag32]

Spooky, you should watch Law Abiding Citizen.  I only mention it because it's on TNT right now.  But, I'd rent it, not watch the edited version TNT does.  It reminded me of Death Note because the main character...you don't quite know if he's good or bad.  Same as Light.  You can definitely see some parallels.  Not to mention it's just a good movie starring Gerard Butler. 

I talked with people about it.  They said, "Yeah, I was rooting for the bad guy."  The person I, of course, thought was a good guy. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

Spooky, you should watch Law Abiding Citizen.  I only mention it because it's on TNT right now.  But, I'd rent it, not watch the edited version TNT does.  It reminded me of Death Note because the main character...you don't quite know if he's good or bad.  Same as Light.  You can definitely see some parallels.  Not to mention it's just a good movie starring Gerard Butler. 

I talked with people about it.  They said, "Yeah, I was rooting for the bad guy."  The person I, of course, thought was a good guy. 

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I've heard of that. Don't know anything about it, but the title is familiar, and I love Gerard Butler.  SOLD!

And yeah, I don't bother with the edited for TV version of movies if I can avoid it.  I'm firing up Netflix now, thanks!

I love stories with characters that could be called good or bad, depending on your point of view (or how you perceive their actions) .  That's one of the things I loved about Swordfish and of course Death Note.

[TheMessOfReaper]

Im tired of thinking about REM. Episode 21 REM wrote a name in the car for Misa but REM was supposed to die. Actually REM did this for saving Misa's life. I think there is no difference between killing L  and written name in the car.   Please tell me the point I couldn't notice.

[Bad_Witch]

Misa's life wasn't in danger, and Rem didn't write the name in the car with the sole purpose of extending Misa's life. That's the difference. There's nothing in the rules preventing a Shinigami from writing down a human's name because a human asked them too. That is all Misa had done at that point. Rem had no way of knowing for certain that killing at human would benefit Misa in such a way, and Rem didn't write the name down with the sole purpose of extending Misa's life.

H-Kira didn't threaten Misa's life until after it was "proven" that Misa was the second Kira.

With L, Rem knew if the 13-day rule was proven false...L would continue to hunt Light and Misa until he finally caught them...which would most likely result in Misa's death. While it could be argued that there is not way to know for certain Misa would have died because of this, Rem didn't want to take the chance and wrote L's and Watari's names with the sole intent of extending Misa's life.

The question of a Shinigami dying this way is the intent of the Shinigami. If they kill a human to save another human, they die. If they kill a human and if saves another human, but the Shinigami had no intention of saving that human, they live.

I should also note that one of the rules in the Death Note (you would have to find a complete list of rules) is that every death caused by the Death Note may extend another human(s) life.

[Meilag32]

Still makes me wonder what's controlling everything.  What determines fate and how the Death Note predicts it?  Is the Death Note controlling reality or was something else and the Death Note was just a tool?

[Bad_Witch]

Most likely the Death Note was just a tool. We never see the Shinigami king or even learn anything about how he rules over Mu. It's possible the Death Note is just a tool he made or whatever reason.

I don't think fate matter at all. Everything in the DN universe centered around free will and its consequences.

[Meilag32]

I think fate mattered heavily.  But I know that you don't like fate so you wouldn't want to think so.  And it wasn't run by a Shinigami.  How did reality know that Rem writing L's name would lengthen Misa's life?  What's predicting this future outcome?  And how is set in stone?  Some kind of destiny or fate decreed that L would shorten Misa's life.  You understand where I'm coming from?  Something's predicting the future and reality acts accordingly.  It doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the series, but the DN universe does have an invisble hand of fate running at least some things.

[Bad_Witch]

I just don't like fate, I loath it. I loath the idea of it. The idea that choices don't matter and if something is meant to happen it will. It's the biggest piece of bullshit humans feed themselves and the largest scapegoat.

As for how did reality know, simple, it's a consquence of actions. That's it. Misa got a Death Note, chose to use it and chose to use it in the manner she did. Her choices not only led her to Light but also to L. L was determined to stop Kira and anyone helping him. Once L proved the 13-day rule false, it opened the door to suspect Light and Misa again. L already did and wouldn't stop until he caught them. Light wasn't going to stop. Those are choices made by them, and they lead to whatever happens. It isn't/wasn't set in stone. Nothing is. People are free to choose a different path at any time, or choose to stay on the one they are on. Do you see L giving up? Light? Misa? Because they wouldn't, that is the only end it could lead to.

Also, I meant to do this but didn't, I'm pretty positive the rule governing Rem's death had little to do with actually lengthening a human's lifespan and more to do with the Shinigami killing a human to lenghen said human's life. They sound like the same thing, but they're not.

[Meilag32]

Well, you obviously don't get where I'm coming from.  I'm not talking about the characters' motivations and reasoning.  Who's to say a new clue wouldn't come up, or maybe L chokes on a strawberry, or Misa gets hit by a car?  There's an infinite amount of outcomes possible, yet the one that fate apparently wants to happen is the one where L's continued existence will end Misa's life.  And the whole lifespan thing.  Where there's a date where a human will die.  Where something decreed that this one person won't die, no matter what happens, until said date.  Explain how that's not fate.

How are they different?  The specific rule is as follows: "If the God of Death decides to use the Death Note to kill the assassin of an individual he favors, the individuals life will be extended, but the God of death will die."  And I do recall something along the lines it being wrong because Shinigami were meant to shorten human lives, not lengthen them.  That seemed the bigger crime than killing the "assassin" to save the life of another.

[Bad_Witch]

I wasn't talking about that rule, I was talking about these.

By manipulating the death of a human that has influence over another human's life, that human's original lifespan can sometimes be lengthened.

If a god of death intentionally does the above manipulation to effectively lengthen a human's lifespan, the god of death will die, but even if a human does the same, the human will not die.

Would you say L had influence over Misa's life? Did Rem kill L to save Misa? It doesn't matter if Rem succeded in lengthening Misa's life by killing L, only that she meant to. Fate didn't have anything to do with it, just the intents and actions of Rem.

Where is it decreed that a person won't die until said date? I must have missed that somewhere. The rules of the Death Note state that humans lifes can be shortened or lengthen....infact everyone single human who does die because of the notebook does shorten or lengthen the lives of other humans. It's stated in there. If fate was real in the DN universe, those people would still die...fate would just find another means of killing them. As for the date thing...I don't find that to be fate, just fact. Every human dies, no one lives forever. When your born, which is a date, you are born with an expiration date as well. In fact, to prove that...the DN rules state many times about orginal lifespans...as if lifespans are not written in stone.

[Meilag32]

It seems like the crime is to lengthen the lifespan of a human.  Again, it's because Shinigami are supposed to shorten those lifespans, not lengthen them. 

Yes, L had influence over Misa.  But that alone means that it was fated that L have influence over her.  It's all being predicted before it happens.  Fate.  Destiny.  Whatever you call it.  It seems the Death Note has the ability to change fate. 

Well, that's their lifespan.  It's how much time they have left.  Why would it be wrong?  Shinigami need the lifespans to be accurate so they know how much life they're taking.  The whole idea of lifespans doesn't make any sense if they're completely inaccurate.  Sure, they can change.  But a person will always die exactly when the lifespan says they will.  Unless a Death Note is used.  Like when Misa was first supposed to die.  Rem and Gelus knew that she would die at this specific date and time. Gelus acted to change it, but that just means that fate can be altered somewhat.  I guess Misa could have went and danced in the middle of a freeway and not be killed.  Because unless her lifespan changed, she would not die until that time listed. 

I just think there's far too much order in all of it to be completely random chaos. 

[Bad_Witch]

Why is so much coming down to fate? Gelus chose to save Misa. Rem chose to give that notebook to Misa. Misa chose to use the notebook to find Kira. Misa chose to fall in love with Light. Misa's choices invovling Light led her to L. Hence her choices allowed L to influnce her life. Fate not needed.

That is not what the rules say at all. They state that even if a lifespan is shortened or lengthen, only the orginal lifespan is shown with the eyes. Maybe Shinigami get the remaining orginal lifespan regardless.

I find it amusing you're using Misa...the one person in the series to have two Shinigami die for her and have her lifespan lengthened in that manner. No one knows for sure how much lifespan Misa actually had left when she died. It's what...6 short years between Rem dying for her and Misa killing herself. Do you honestly think Rem only had 6 human years left? No, scratch that. Misa's lifespan was cut in half twice, once with Rem and the second time with Ryuk...using Gelus's original lifespan. Since Ryuk could only take half of her remaining lifespan, and Misa clearly is living when Rem bites it, that means the time since Misa took the eye deal and the time Rem dies needs to be added to Misa's lifespan before Rem's. Still less than 6 human years.

And, if you want to go the manga route...there's only a 3 year time skip...so Rem had less then 4 years of life. That just doesn't make sense in any shape or form....so Misa died before her lifespan was up and without her name being written in any Death Note.

[Meilag32]

Fate determines choice.  Fate needed.  Plus, it's not really free will if the future is predetermined to run along a set path.  The future can be made to follow a different path, but things are still destined to occur a certain way.

What do you mean only the original lifespan is seen?  Explain how Rem knew that Misa made the eye deal with Ryuk just by looking at her lifespan.  She could see that it was halved. 

Wasn't there a rule about suicide doing something?   Suicide being a special circumstance or something?  I forget exactly but I know suicide was mentioned.  And how is it out of the realm of possibility that Rem didn't have many years left?  The Shinigami tend to be too lazy write names until they desperately need to.  Sidoh is a good example of this.   It's possible that Rem didn't have much time left and the people she killed didn't have a lot of time on their lifespans, either.  It's not impossible that she only got a few years added.  

And didn't Ryuk say that he didn't want to wait around all the years it would take for Light's lifespan to run out while he sat in jail and that's why he was ending it now?  Apparently, according to what Ryuk was seeing in his lifespan, Light would lived quite a while yet.  So I guess fate decided that Light would not get the death penalty and would get life imprisonment since his lifespan was supposed to continue for a while yet. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Didn't they say that if a shinigami killed someone to lengthen another's life, that the killed person's remaining lift span would be transferred to the person whose life was saved?

We don't know how much time Rem had left, but I know she probably didn't get much from Watari, but certainly quite a lot from L.

[Meilag32]

How do you know he got a lot from L?  Maybe L would die one year later.  It's dangerous work, trying to catch Kira and I imagine that Light would have eventually found another way to kill L if Rem wouldn't. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

When L went to meet Light at the college and Misa showed up.  Light thinks L's lost because Misa has the eyes.  He introduces her and she sees that the name Light gave her isn't the one she's seeing.  Light moved in front of the 'camera' so we couldn't see his name, but they did show his life span.  There's no way to read it, of course, but it was a rather large number.  I think it was larger than Light's (which we saw through Ryuk's eyes when he was explaining the eye deal to him in the beginning).

That's an assumption I'm making based on the size of the number.

[Meilag32]

You do know we have no way of knowing what those numbers mean?  A larger number may not mean anything.  It may mean a longer lifespan, but we don't know their numbering system.  How are the numbers are organized?  Are they grouped the same way?  Is it read from left to right like ours?  I would not put any stock in what we see when lifespans are displayed.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

That's true, we don't know the numbering system, but there were a whole lot of digits in that life span that we saw through Misa's eyes.  

He was a young guy, like Light, and he had a lot of digits in his life span, again like Light.  I remember Misa looking at a crowd scene and there was a woman who only had four digits over her head.  I doubt that meant that she would be living to a ripe old age.

I still say Misa got quite a few years off L when Rem killed him, plus whatever she had left, how much of which we can't have any idea.

[Bad_Witch]

Yes, if it's fated, then it's not free will. See why I loathe fate so much. If no choice can be truly made then what is the point? I don't believe fate determines choice at all because than it's not a choice. It's just meant to happen.

I mean the original lifespan is seen. In the case of Rem, since taking the eye deal requires half of the lifespan to be cut in payment...it could cut the numbers in half that are seen since the payment for the eyes is half of the remaining lifespan.

Actually, suicide isn't a special circumstance. The rule merely states suicide can be used as a manner of death  because it isn't thought to be out of the realm of possibility for a human to commit it. If it would be, then the heart attack default death woudl kick in.

It might not be impossible, but it isn't logical. For Misa to only live 6 years...and those years came from L, Watari, and the person Rem killed in the car...Rem had to be almost out of life when she killed L. Rem, who wanted to stay by Misa's side and make sure Misa lived a happy life...wouldn't make sure she had enough life to see it? Rem would have allowed her own lifespan to fall so far behind Misa's that...knowing Light had already threatened Misa's life and most likely would kill Misa to further his own plans, that she would allow herself to die because she didn't make sure she had enough life? Rem only died because Light arranged it so. Rem didn't actually intend to die.

This is assuming Ryuk knew enough about the notebook to come to that conclusion. Ryuk admits he didn't know much about the Death Note and when Rem mentioned a rule, Ryuk openly admitted that he didn't know that. Ryuk isn't the best source of information. Plus, Light's lifespan probably wasn't accurate to begin with. Using a Death Note can either lengthen or shorten the person's life, but again only the original lifespan can be seen. I know it says that in the rules many times.

You seem to be basing  all this on fate determining the lifespans. I view it more as chance. Everyone born does die...it's just a luck of the draw when.

[Bad_Witch]

It would be so much easier if Ohba didn't lose the numbering system. I know I read somewhere that Ohba did have one...and he/she figured out L's and Light's lifespans, and L was supposed to live into his 50's. Since he was only 25...26 when he died, that would mean the author intended for a longer lifespan for Misa than she lived.

I don't remember the 4  digits. I'll have to keep an eye out for that next rewatch.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Bad_Witch wrote:

It would be so much easier if Ohba didn't lose the numbering system. I know I read somewhere that Ohba did have one...and he/she figured out L's and Light's lifespans, and L was supposed to live into his 50's. Since he was only 25...26 when he died, that would mean the author intended for a longer lifespan for Misa than she lived.

I don't remember the 4  digits. I'll have to keep an eye out for that next rewatch.

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I know, I wish he could have held on to that and shared it with us.  I remember reading where he said that, but I don't remember him saying that L would live only into his 50's.  Of course it may not have been in the 'how to read' book where he said it. 

I think I remember there being much more than 4 digits in his lifespan.  I haven't watched it in a few months, but I remember thinking, 'whoa, that's a LOT of numbers!' when they showed it.

[Meilag32]

The amount of digits might not mean anything.  4.27280982 has more digits than 1000 but it's not larger. 

I still say it's not smart to start making assumptions about those numbers.  They left it a mystery for a reason. 

[Meilag32]

Look, I'm no more a fan of fate, destiny, God, or whatever you want to call it, than you are.  I loathe the idea that my actions are not my own or that no matter what I do, something will have decided what's to come.  That's why if I ever encountered God, I would try to kill him.  That way each person was in control of their own destiny.  Of course if there was an option to steal his powers, I would choose that. 

See,  I forgot what the suicide one was about. 

A supernatural notebook owned by demons that can magically kill someone isn't logical either.  I don't think Rem would allow herself to die.  All she has to do is write a name down.  Takes 5 seconds.  It wouldn't be surprising if Shinigami let it run down to weeks or months.  If they let it get down to minutes, then there could be some concern. 

Show me exactly where it says that the lifespan above a person's head never changes.  Because it makes no sense as far the Shinigami are concerned.  Like I said, they need to know exactly how much time they're dealing with.  It wouldn't work if a Shinigami writes a name down thinking they're getting 50 years when they're only getting 5 days.  The lifespans need to be accurate for the system to work and it wouldn't be accurate if it's the wrong number floating there. 

So it was chance that Light was supposed to die whenever the lifespan said?  Or anybody else's?  You can't predict chance yet something is accurately predicting how much time a person has left until they die.  It doesn't seem to be the Shinigami.  They barely know anything about the Note. 

[Meilag32]

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Bad_Witch wrote:

It would be so much easier if Ohba didn't lose the numbering system. I know I read somewhere that Ohba did have one...and he/she figured out L's and Light's lifespans, and L was supposed to live into his 50's. Since he was only 25...26 when he died, that would mean the author intended for a longer lifespan for Misa than she lived.

I don't remember the 4  digits. I'll have to keep an eye out for that next rewatch.

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So L was supposed to live into his 50s?  That seems pretty set in stone for something you call chance.  So apparently, unless killed by a Death Note, L would live to be 50.  No chance of dying before that.