Death Note

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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robertje wrote:

this is getting crazy haha i mean both sides are good points personally after re watching the show i can honestly say they were both just as evil as the other, Light kills in the name of justice(as he believes) and L uses people to get what he needs or to figure out new clues. personally killing bad guys is a good thing but thats the main thing. Its all about what you believe is right and what is wrong. Who are we to say killing another person is wrong? Male lions will kill the cubs of the females if its not his offspring. We dont see that as being wrong its natural selection, the strongest survive and truely these people that are doing wrong all the while fully knowing that Kira was out there looking for people who do wrong to kill them, then I say they deserve to die! 

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HA HA HA!  Of course you're right.    I guess I knew that as I was typing my last response.

Is killing ever the right thing to do?  Well, if someone has knife in hand and is charging you with intent to commit bodily harm, then yes - you are perfectly justified in killing them first.  For me, imminent threat of harm is justification for killing if it can't be avoided.  For someone who's already committed a crime (and maybe already punished for it), killing them is not only wildly inappropriate but evil.  *shrug* but that's just me.  Others don't agree with that, as long as the end goal of killing people who've maybe already been punished (or even waiting for punishment) is for a greater good.

[robertje]

only thing is people who kill people esp in the US go to prison but our prison system is so "comfortable" it just seems like are they really being punished??? you kill someone so you get sent to a place where yes you do have limited privlages but you still get 3 meals a day you have tv board games work out area basketball court? rofl alot of that is more than some of those guys had outside of the jail lol so how would that be considered justice or paying their debt??? personally thats when the law needs to be taken into your own hands lol

[Meilag32]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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robertje wrote:

this is getting crazy haha i mean both sides are good points personally after re watching the show i can honestly say they were both just as evil as the other, Light kills in the name of justice(as he believes) and L uses people to get what he needs or to figure out new clues. personally killing bad guys is a good thing but thats the main thing. Its all about what you believe is right and what is wrong. Who are we to say killing another person is wrong? Male lions will kill the cubs of the females if its not his offspring. We dont see that as being wrong its natural selection, the strongest survive and truely these people that are doing wrong all the while fully knowing that Kira was out there looking for people who do wrong to kill them, then I say they deserve to die! 

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HA HA HA!  Of course you're right.    I guess I knew that as I was typing my last response.

Is killing ever the right thing to do?  Well, if someone has knife in hand and is charging you with intent to commit bodily harm, then yes - you are perfectly justified in killing them first.  For me, imminent threat of harm is justification for killing if it can't be avoided.  For someone who's already committed a crime (and maybe already punished for it), killing them is not only wildly inappropriate but evil.  *shrug* but that's just me.  Others don't agree with that, as long as the end goal of killing people who've maybe already been punished (or even waiting for punishment) is for a greater good.

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Yes, it can be.  Actually, you'd be surprised how often it's the only thing to do. 

Careful there.  Your morally religious views on what's evil doesn't count as evidence.  It simply states your moral stance.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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robertje wrote:

this is getting crazy haha i mean both sides are good points personally after re watching the show i can honestly say they were both just as evil as the other, Light kills in the name of justice(as he believes) and L uses people to get what he needs or to figure out new clues. personally killing bad guys is a good thing but thats the main thing. Its all about what you believe is right and what is wrong. Who are we to say killing another person is wrong? Male lions will kill the cubs of the females if its not his offspring. We dont see that as being wrong its natural selection, the strongest survive and truely these people that are doing wrong all the while fully knowing that Kira was out there looking for people who do wrong to kill them, then I say they deserve to die! 

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HA HA HA!  Of course you're right.    I guess I knew that as I was typing my last response.

Is killing ever the right thing to do?  Well, if someone has knife in hand and is charging you with intent to commit bodily harm, then yes - you are perfectly justified in killing them first.  For me, imminent threat of harm is justification for killing if it can't be avoided.  For someone who's already committed a crime (and maybe already punished for it), killing them is not only wildly inappropriate but evil.  *shrug* but that's just me.  Others don't agree with that, as long as the end goal of killing people who've maybe already been punished (or even waiting for punishment) is for a greater good.

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Yes, it can be.  Actually, you'd be surprised how often it's the only thing to do. 

Careful there.  Your morally religious views on what's evil doesn't count as evidence.  It simply states your moral stance.

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Yes, I am aware of this fact.

[Meilag32]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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Meilag32 wrote:

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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robertje wrote:

this is getting crazy haha i mean both sides are good points personally after re watching the show i can honestly say they were both just as evil as the other, Light kills in the name of justice(as he believes) and L uses people to get what he needs or to figure out new clues. personally killing bad guys is a good thing but thats the main thing. Its all about what you believe is right and what is wrong. Who are we to say killing another person is wrong? Male lions will kill the cubs of the females if its not his offspring. We dont see that as being wrong its natural selection, the strongest survive and truely these people that are doing wrong all the while fully knowing that Kira was out there looking for people who do wrong to kill them, then I say they deserve to die! 

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HA HA HA!  Of course you're right.    I guess I knew that as I was typing my last response.

Is killing ever the right thing to do?  Well, if someone has knife in hand and is charging you with intent to commit bodily harm, then yes - you are perfectly justified in killing them first.  For me, imminent threat of harm is justification for killing if it can't be avoided.  For someone who's already committed a crime (and maybe already punished for it), killing them is not only wildly inappropriate but evil.  *shrug* but that's just me.  Others don't agree with that, as long as the end goal of killing people who've maybe already been punished (or even waiting for punishment) is for a greater good.

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Yes, it can be.  Actually, you'd be surprised how often it's the only thing to do. 

Careful there.  Your morally religious views on what's evil doesn't count as evidence.  It simply states your moral stance.

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Yes, I am aware of this fact.

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It amazes me how few actually do realize that.  I can't remember how many times people claimed Light was evil and only offered "killing is wrong" as evidence. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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Meilag32 wrote:

Careful there.  Your morally religious views on what's evil doesn't count as evidence.  It simply states your moral stance.

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Yes, I am aware of this fact.

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It amazes me how few actually do realize that.  I can't remember how many times people claimed Light was evil and only offered "killing is wrong" as evidence. 

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I always try to be honest to myself.  I type this stuff and I know I'm not proving anything to anyone, just stating what I think and why.  

Frankly I DO understand why some people would think Light isn't evil.  That's the beauty of the story they told and how they told it.  Yes, the characters stated their opinions on the subject, but you know?  I think the only ones who were actually objectively right were Yagami Souichiro and Ryuzaki when they said that Kira was unfortunate.  Even Ryuk said it.

Ryuk told Light at the beginning that the only price from using the book was fear and pain suffered by the people who used it.  Light certainly had plenty of reasons for anxiety and I'm sure felt quite a bit of stress from being hounded by L and then Near.   And look at how he ended, falling to pieces in front of not only Near and the SPK but in front of the people who trusted him.

Man, I just finished devouring the manga.  There were things in the anime that didn't make sense, but now they do.   I'm going through volume 13, how to read and that has some fascinating stuff too.  

Ohba san wanted the readers to make up their own minds about things, which I think is an excellent way to tell a story.  

[Meilag32]

To be fair, I don't think think any one is capable of a truly objective view, even a supernatural being like Ryuk, since they are looking from the view of a being that doesn't know all the hopes and fears humans have.

Yeah, the manga was pretty good too.  Glad to see the anime stayed mostly true to the original source.  The How To Read 13 is quite interesting.  While I didn't mind them presenting a lot of this background material in one volume, I think L's real name should have been shown within the story.  It was important enough.  At leasthe live-action movie did it. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

To be fair, I don't think think any one is capable of a truly objective view, even a supernatural being like Ryuk, since they are looking from the view of a being that doesn't know all the hopes and fears humans have.

Yeah, the manga was pretty good too.  Glad to see the anime stayed mostly true to the original source.  The How To Read 13 is quite interesting.  While I didn't mind them presenting a lot of this background material in one volume, I think L's real name should have been shown within the story.  It was important enough.  At leasthe live-action movie did it. 

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Definitely.  Our views are shaped by our past experiences and what we learned over the course of our lives.  We all drag our memories and past experiences along with us and they play a major influence on how we react to and think about things.  This is why I love talking to a lot of people about stories like Death Note and Cowboy Bebop.  I know what *I* think and why, but hearing someone else's perspective (especially if they try to say WHY they think that way) often makes me re-examine what I think.  That's my idea of fun.

Yeah, about L's name - I've seen it written in message board postings and Death Note information sites, but I always wondered where that came from.  

I consider myself a Death Note n00b, only started watching it a month ago (or was it two months?).  So far I've watched the series a half dozen times and am trying with little success to pace myself. I'm trying to devour everything Death Note related, but interestingly, I'm not interested in the live action movies.   I guess I just love the artwork and the voices I'm used to hearing while watching the show (subbed, of course).

I just ordered the two Re-Light specials.  I watched the first one online and part of the second until the site cut me off.  LOL, I actually have "L's Successors" here from Netflix waiting for me to watch it.  I'm not so much interested in the series recap as I am in the extra scenes.  Some of the re-edited scenes I saw had additional stuff too.  I'm all over that.

The way I operate, when I find something I LOVE I watch it over and over and over again.  I did that with Cowboy Bebop and now I'm doing it with Death Note. I find new things every time I watch it. The manga really helps too, as a character would make a comment in the manga that explains so much that's left out of the series.  For example, when Soichiro and Mogi quit the NPA to chase Kira and Matsuda declares he's going to quit too, in the manga he says he only got the job because of connections and that dad would be disappointed... I really wish that had made it into the anime, it explains so much. ROFL.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

But I really liked that Light working with Ryuzaki after he lost his memories.  You said earlier that that wasn't his true personality.  I'm wondering now if you were right in that.  If that was a false personality, then that's the personality I pity.  

Or is it that I am sorrowful for the fact that that personality is gone forever?   Something I need to ponder.

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Sorry, Meilag32, I couldn't find your original posting where you said that.

I'm going through volume 13 "How to Read" again and on page 64 at the bottom, in response to "Light's request: 'Look into my eyes,'"  Mr Obata says that that's something the pre-Kira Light would have said.  He wanted to show what Light would have been like had he never found the notebook.

So according to the writer, that WAS his original personality.  Whether or not that's his REAL personality is probably open for debate, but that's what he would have been without the notebook.

[Meilag32]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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Meilag32 wrote:

To be fair, I don't think think any one is capable of a truly objective view, even a supernatural being like Ryuk, since they are looking from the view of a being that doesn't know all the hopes and fears humans have.

Yeah, the manga was pretty good too.  Glad to see the anime stayed mostly true to the original source.  The How To Read 13 is quite interesting.  While I didn't mind them presenting a lot of this background material in one volume, I think L's real name should have been shown within the story.  It was important enough.  At leasthe live-action movie did it. 

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Definitely.  Our views are shaped by our past experiences and what we learned over the course of our lives.  We all drag our memories and past experiences along with us and they play a major influence on how we react to and think about things.  This is why I love talking to a lot of people about stories like Death Note and Cowboy Bebop.  I know what *I* think and why, but hearing someone else's perspective (especially if they try to say WHY they think that way) often makes me re-examine what I think.  That's my idea of fun.

Yeah, about L's name - I've seen it written in message board postings and Death Note information sites, but I always wondered where that came from.  

I consider myself a Death Note n00b, only started watching it a month ago (or was it two months?).  So far I've watched the series a half dozen times and am trying with little success to pace myself. I'm trying to devour everything Death Note related, but interestingly, I'm not interested in the live action movies.   I guess I just love the artwork and the voices I'm used to hearing while watching the show (subbed, of course).

I just ordered the two Re-Light specials.  I watched the first one online and part of the second until the site cut me off.  LOL, I actually have "L's Successors" here from Netflix waiting for me to watch it.  I'm not so much interested in the series recap as I am in the extra scenes.  Some of the re-edited scenes I saw had additional stuff too.  I'm all over that.

The way I operate, when I find something I LOVE I watch it over and over and over again.  I did that with Cowboy Bebop and now I'm doing it with Death Note. I find new things every time I watch it. The manga really helps too, as a character would make a comment in the manga that explains so much that's left out of the series.  For example, when Soichiro and Mogi quit the NPA to chase Kira and Matsuda declares he's going to quit too, in the manga he says he only got the job because of connections and that dad would be disappointed... I really wish that had made it into the anime, it explains so much. ROFL.

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I think nature plays a large part in how we act and think.  Nurture plays a role, but I think the core of a person has already been set and experiences in life can only shift a person so far from that core.  I find it comforting to think that even if I had been given a more normal life, I'd still be who I am right now.

Clever of him to use his actual first name as his code name. 

6 times in the past month?!  Have you watched anything but Death Note?  You should watch the movies, even if just once.  They're good.  You think no actor could ever portray L with all his eccentricities, but they found one.  They even got the actors who dubbed the series to do the movies, not that you'd care being a subber.  Have you listened to the dub track at all?  It's good too.  Ryuk's VA and Light's were commended for their good voice acting. 

I own the Re-lights.  They're OK.  And just OK.   They don't have enough extra stuff to really make it worthwhile.  Seriously, you sit through 2 hours of recap for 10 minutes of new stuff.  Or close to that. 

You can't blame the team that made the anime for leaving out stuff.  They did a remarkably good job, and of course it's impossible to fit an entire manga into 37 episodes. 

[Meilag32]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

But I really liked that Light working with Ryuzaki after he lost his memories.  You said earlier that that wasn't his true personality.  I'm wondering now if you were right in that.  If that was a false personality, then that's the personality I pity.  

Or is it that I am sorrowful for the fact that that personality is gone forever?   Something I need to ponder.

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Sorry, Meilag32, I couldn't find your original posting where you said that.

I'm going through volume 13 "How to Read" again and on page 64 at the bottom, in response to "Light's request: 'Look into my eyes,'"  Mr Obata says that that's something the pre-Kira Light would have said.  He wanted to show what Light would have been like had he never found the notebook.

So according to the writer, that WAS his original personality.  Whether or not that's his REAL personality is probably open for debate, but that's what he would have been without the notebook.

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Ohba says that if Light had never found the Death Note that he would have gone on to eventually team up with L and solve cases together.  Obata is the illustrator, by the way. 

His original personality is the one we see in episode 1 before he figured out the Death Note.  And his personality was still kind of like Kira.  Just not a killing Kira.  I think more of a trapped Kira. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:
 

Ohba says that if Light had never found the Death Note that he would have gone on to eventually team up with L and solve cases together.  Obata is the illustrator, by the way. 

His original personality is the one we see in episode 1 before he figured out the Death Note.  And his personality was still kind of like Kira.  Just not a killing Kira.  I think more of a trapped Kira. 

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You're right, it IS Ohba.  I'm still having a terrible time keeping Ohba and Obata straight.  

I like some of the other things he said: Light is very evil. L is sort of evil. Soichiro Yagami is good.

Of course he's the writer, and that's his opinion.  He says that it's useless to debate who was evil (that wasn't his intent) or who was good or bad.  Well, I may beg to differ.  Still, I think he's right, especialy based on our most recent exchange - good and evil with respect to Light and L like you said mostly boils down to ideology.   Still, I like hearing people's opinions on the subject, especially when they state WHY they think that way.

I'm just in awe of Death Note. The manga is amazing, and Tetsuro Araki did a FABULOUS job translating it to animation. The voice acting is exquisite.

I still think Light was the evil one - at least the Light under the influence of the notebook.  I'm a pro life person and anyone who is so willing and eager to snuff out a life like he was is definitely evil in my book.

Of course others are welcome to differ.

[Meilag32]

Ohba has stated some stuff in interviews but tends to keep his(her?) opinions close to the vest.  The problem is, what if Ohba is just saying what is socially acceptable (exactly like the classroom example that Light mentioned to Ryuk)?  Everyone has to play that game to get ahead, even me.  If you met me in person, you'd never know that my entire persona was an act and that instead of being all nice and generous (like what the public sees), I'm a very callous and ruthless person who sees all people as nothing more than potential tools to be used and discarded as I see fit. 

Death Note is pretty awe-inspiring.  I don't think there's another anime that's like it. 

Yeah, yeah, you think Light was evil.  If you find some real proof of that, I'll listen.  Unfortunately for you, I have statistics to back up that Light actually did good.   I won't deny that Light was willing to kill.  That's quite obvious.  But how do you know he was eager?  I didn't pick up on any eagerness to feel the thrill of killing. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

Ohba has stated some stuff in interviews but tends to keep his(her?) opinions close to the vest.  The problem is, what if Ohba is just saying what is socially acceptable (exactly like the classroom example that Light mentioned to Ryuk)?  Everyone has to play that game to get ahead, even me.  If you met me in person, you'd never know that my entire persona was an act and that instead of being all nice and generous (like what the public sees), I'm a very callous and ruthless person who sees all people as nothing more than potential tools to be used and discarded as I see fit. 

Death Note is pretty awe-inspiring.  I don't think there's another anime that's like it. 

Yeah, yeah, you think Light was evil.  If you find some real proof of that, I'll listen.  Unfortunately for you, I have statistics to back up that Light actually did good.   I won't deny that Light was willing to kill.  That's quite obvious.  But how do you know he was eager?  I didn't pick up on any eagerness to feel the thrill of killing. 

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Ohba san could be keeping things close to his vest (he's a guy) and you could be right.  

He did say it was useless to debate the right or wrong of what Light was doing, and more and more I'm seeing he was right.

Death Note is pretty awe-inspiring.  I don't think there's another anime that's like it. 

THAT'S for sure!  Very unique, no matter how one looks at it.  It's a masterpiece, and I love what they did with it in the anime.  There were some things left out though that I really regret.  Some of them just a single line that someone had in the manga that I think should have been in the anime, but oh well.  It doesn't really suffer for the lack.

My comment about Light's eagerness to kill was mostly an observation on my part that his answer to pretty much everything was to kill someone.   He was (in my opinion, mind you) far too comfortable with killing people, even those who were on his side.  With friends like him, who needs enemies, you know?

[Meilag32]

Ohba's identity isn't really known.  Like L, Ohba's true identity is known to few people.  "Ohba" is presumed to be an alias.  Some rumors state that Ohba may be a different anime author.

When you get into a situation as serious as the one Light was in, you'll find that killing is most likely the only solution that works.  Seriously, what was he to do to all the people after him?  He had to use the only weapon at his disposal. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

Ohba's identity isn't really known.  Like L, Ohba's true identity is known to few people.  "Ohba" is presumed to be an alias.  Some rumors state that Ohba may be a different anime author.

When you get into a situation as serious as the one Light was in, you'll find that killing is most likely the only solution that works.  Seriously, what was he to do to all the people after him?  He had to use the only weapon at his disposal. 

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Really?  Got any references for that?  I'm not being challenging, that's a fascinating tidbit if true.  One of the extras on the DVD set was a short interview with Ohba and Obata and I'm assuming it was with the real guys.  I'm not familiar with writers and artists (the only one I would recognise off the bat is Kawamoto Toshihiro), so I would have no idea if the two guys on the DVD were the real deals or not.  

[Achi]

Light had a severe god complex. Not only did he want to purge the earth of criminals based on his terms of justice, he wanted to reign as the god over the result. This is why he didn't just kill criminals, but also those who stood against him. The uncharacteristically unyielding Japanese police officers who killed Matt in the name of Kira are my evidence for that.

That's my main problem with Light. You can't "prove" someone's evil. Good and evil are relative. It comes down to whether or not you believe death as a punishment for criminals is just. I don't. Therefore I believe Light's actions are unjust.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Achi wrote:

Light had a severe god complex. Not only did he want to purge the earth of criminals based on his terms of justice, he wanted to reign as the god over the result. This is why he didn't just kill criminals, but also those who stood against him. The uncharacteristically unyielding Japanese police officers who killed Matt in the name of Kira are my evidence for that.

That's my main problem with Light. You can't "prove" someone's evil. Good and evil are relative. It comes down to whether or not you believe death as a punishment for criminals is just. I don't. Therefore I believe Light's actions are unjust.

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That's a really good way of putting it.  And I'm with you.  And he wouldn't have stopped with just criminals, punishing anyone who violated his ideas or standards of behavior with death.  When Takada started saying those who don't contribute to society would be punished by Kira, Light said it was "too soon," so you had to know that was in his plans for down the road.

Punishing, maybe, but with death?  Too harsh.  Unjust.  

[Meilag32]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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Meilag32 wrote:

Ohba's identity isn't really known.  Like L, Ohba's true identity is known to few people.  "Ohba" is presumed to be an alias.  Some rumors state that Ohba may be a different anime author.

When you get into a situation as serious as the one Light was in, you'll find that killing is most likely the only solution that works.  Seriously, what was he to do to all the people after him?  He had to use the only weapon at his disposal. 

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Really?  Got any references for that?  I'm not being challenging, that's a fascinating tidbit if true.  One of the extras on the DVD set was a short interview with Ohba and Obata and I'm assuming it was with the real guys.  I'm not familiar with writers and artists (the only one I would recognise off the bat is Kawamoto Toshihiro), so I would have no idea if the two guys on the DVD were the real deals or not.  

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That's what everyone says.  Can I point you to one specific source that says this, no.  It's mentioned off-hand semi-frequently when discussing Ohba.  Like I said, there are people who do know who Ohba really is.  The general public is left in the dark, though.  Apparently Obata doesn't do the mystery thing like Ohba does so he gives more interviews and stuff.  I think I remember reading that Obata met Ohba face-to-face only once.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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Meilag32 wrote:

Ohba's identity isn't really known.  Like L, Ohba's true identity is known to few people.  "Ohba" is presumed to be an alias.  Some rumors state that Ohba may be a different anime author.

When you get into a situation as serious as the one Light was in, you'll find that killing is most likely the only solution that works.  Seriously, what was he to do to all the people after him?  He had to use the only weapon at his disposal. 

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Really?  Got any references for that?  I'm not being challenging, that's a fascinating tidbit if true.  One of the extras on the DVD set was a short interview with Ohba and Obata and I'm assuming it was with the real guys.  I'm not familiar with writers and artists (the only one I would recognise off the bat is Kawamoto Toshihiro), so I would have no idea if the two guys on the DVD were the real deals or not.  

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That's what everyone says.  Can I point you to one specific source that says this, no.  It's mentioned off-hand semi-frequently when discussing Ohba.  Like I said, there are people who do know who Ohba really is.  The general public is left in the dark, though.  Apparently Obata doesn't do the mystery thing like Ohba does so he gives more interviews and stuff.  I think I remember reading that Obata met Ohba face-to-face only once.

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Oh ok.  Obata did say that he worked through the editor when making Death Note.  I remember in "How to Read" Ohba did say he didn't like leaving his house.  Maybe that's true.  Possibly he's just reclusive.  

I'm going to have to look around to see what people are saying. That's fascinating!

[MafiaFlood]

Neither of them are evil. They each have their own set of morals, and each believe that what they are doing is in the best interest of the world in general. (In Light's case: ridding the world of crime by killing all the criminals, in L's case: ridding the world of Kira.)