Death Note

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Forgive me if this is rehashing an old argument.  I haven't read all the postings on this board and if I responded to one, that would be necroposting and I know in a lot of places that's frowned upon, so I'm starting my own thread.

I've heard a lot of Light supporters calling L evil.  I think I read a statement from the manga writer saying something to the effect that he thought L was evil.

Why would he be evil?

For Light, that's a bit easier question.  He started out with good intentions with what he did - make the world a better place.  He also wanted to set himself up as the GOD of that better place, to usher in his kingdom.  You know what they say about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions?  I think that's what we saw here with what Light/Kira.

I mean, someone robs a convenience store - kill him.  Someone mugs someone - kill him.  Someone bullies someone else - kill him.  Are those crimes worth of the death penalty?  For me, the penalty doesn't fit the crime.

A man is downsized out of his job and has a family to feed.   There's economic pressure on him, and who knows what other pressures, maybe wife is pregnant.  In desperation he robs a store.  Kira kills him, leaving behind grieving widow and children without their father, not to mention the dead man's parents, brothers and sisters and friends.  <sarcasm>Yeah, sounds like justice to me.</sarcasm>  Jail him, don't kill him.

L reminds me of the "Dr House" of geniuses in law enforcement.  Taking cases that interest him.  This was a tough one all right. Laws frequently aren't perfect, but it's not an individual's right to mete out death for the smallest infractions.  A crime that warrants a harsh prison sentence should be dealt with with a harsh prison sentence (or even a lighter sentence, depending on what it is).  Death?  That's so final and gives nobody the chance to amend their life.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and I think Light was absolutely corrupted by the Death Note.  He was a megalomaniac waiting to happen I think, and finding that Death Note brought it out in him in spades.  I guess he should be pitied.  I think part of me was hoping he'd be saved, and I did have hope when he gave up the Death Note that maybe there was hope for him.  But no,  he came to the end that he had coming to him, unfortunately.  It was sad for him, but it had to happen.

He started out killing people reported as criminals (what if the report was in error?), but sounded like he was adding to his death list those who didn't work or fulfill their potential.  What was next?  Ugly people?  Would the ugly or deformed be deemed worthy to exist in Light's perfect world?  Too fat?  Too bad - you're dead.  Where would it end?

No, Kira had to be stopped and L entered the scene to try to stop him.  He put his own life on the line to do it too and would have had him had he been able to get evidence.  He just needed more time.  Sadly, he didn't have the time, leaving it to Near and Mello to finish it for him.

I think the person I felt sorriest for in the whole series was Light's mother.  Her husband and son were dead, her daughter (last I remember seeing her) was a vegetable, no clue if she would recover from the events she suffered at the hands of those trying to get the Death Note from Yagami.  All because a shinigami got bored and was looking for entertainment.

I'm wondering who out there who is still around to read this thinks L is evil will tell me WHY they think he was evil as opposed to Light.   That's really interesting to me and I'm curious.  

[cowboyb3b0p]

*googles death note* 

[HappyFatMan]

<~Evil

[Meilag32]

To be fair, we have nothing against necroposting.  Feel free to jump into an old argument.  I may have to read up on what argument was, but I'd probably get back into it. 

Neither one was evil.  L couldn't be called good (he did torture Misa after all without concrete evidence that she killed anyone).  I don't think Light's evil either.  He killed criminals, so what?  You want to see rapists and serial killers alive and free?  He also made sure that it was proven that they had committed the crime.  Granted he had to kill those who got in his way (I still chuckle whenever I think about him writing Naomi's name in the Note), but it was for the greater good.  Should those people have been spared so murderers and rapists could commit more crimes without fear of getting caught?  But overall, in Light's case, I guess you need to not have a problem with killing people.  Some people seem to have a problem with that.  I don't.  Some people should be killed and someone's gotta do the killing.

I don't think Light was corrupted.  The speech he gave to Ryuk about what people say in public and what they actually think seems to point to him always thinking like that and the Death Note simply gave him the means to act on his thoughts. 

Neither one is truly evil, but neither one is truly good.  They both fall into the gray area, a thing the series seems to do a lot. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

No I don't want to see rapists go free.  If you're going to kill them, kill them BEFORE they commit the crime.   Saying someone shouldn't be killing convenience store robbers, muggers and bullies isn't the same as saying they should get off scott free for their crimes.

I see your point about L torturing that annoying **beast** Misa, but he did have evidence that she was the second Kira (the hair samples from the tape that he said they found in her apartment).  That looked like desperate measures to me, and I have to wonder what Watari was doing to her.  SOMETHING, obviously, and yeah, that defnitely slid L into the grey for me.

But Light.  He wanted a perfect world and he wanted to be god of that world.  Frankly, that gave me the shivers.  

[Meilag32]

Before they commit the crime?  Well, yes I'm for that.  But a lot of people aren't.  They say that it's wrong to prosecute somebody who technically hasn't done anything wrong...yet.  That's a quick road to becoming a cruel enforcer, when all you wanted to do was help people. 

No, he only knew for certain that she sent the tapes.  He had no evidence whatsoever that she was the 2nd Kira or that she killed those people.  For all L knew, she could have just mailed the tapes for the 2nd Kira.  I can tell you right now that the Geneva Conventions would not have looked kindly on L's actions. 

What's wrong with a perfect world?  No crime, no fear, no innocents dying.  Sounds pretty good to me.  The only people that needed to be afraid in that perfect world were those that were hurting that perfect world.  Your average citizen would never have any need to fear Kira.  Which was why at the end of the series, worldwide crime had been reduced by at least 70% and most of the world's people supported Kira.  And of course, someone has to run it.  Someone has to be Kira.  If Light had got his way, I imagine he would have needed to kill less and less people.  It would come to be that the mere threat of Kira's judgement would stop all crimes.  Technically, that's what the police are supposed to do: a threat of jail time stops crime.  But everybody knows the system is broken.  So people commit crimes knowing that the chances of them getting caught are slim.  Light just knew that a new system needed to be put into place. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Well you know, Light had me until he started talking about being the god of this perfect world.  Personally, I think he came unglued and more often than not looked insane to me.  He started with good intentions but then got drunk with power.  

He WAS branching out too.  You really think he would stop with just criminals?  I don't.

And even if L didn't have proof that Misa was the second Kira, the fact that they found (even circumstantial) evidence on those tapes would give one strong reason to believe that she knew who the second Kira was and maybe even the Kira they were looking for.  No, his methods weren't kosher, but he wasn't fooling around.

[Meilag32]

Like I said, someone has to run it as Kira.  If he just stopped, the world would revert back.  Someone must be there holding the sword of Damocles over their heads. 

Actually,  he hadn't branched out at all.  Besides stopping those who were actively getting in his way, of course.  Yes, there was that one mention by Mikami about "lazy" people.  But it was never expanded on what exactly that was, and the subject was dropped just as quickly and never brought up again.  Leading to a lot of speculation that really can't be used as evidence.

So perhaps knowing who the culprit is demands over 50 days of what is basically torture?  There's a very good reason L never told anyone other than the Task Force about what he did to Misa.  He might have gotten some jail time for that little stunt.  But whatever, I don't blame him for taking that route.  I would have done far worse to her to get her to talk.  It's just good to keep in mind that L is not the greatest person alive.  Hell, he only takes cases because they're interesting to him, not because he wants to right wrongs.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

I'm not excusing what L did to Misa, but she was the closest he found to a concrete lead to Kira since the investigation started.  People were dying (cops included) so he was going to do whatever it takes to get to the murderer.  As far as I remember, the international law enforcement community basically gave him carte blanche (I would imagine, none of them having a clue how to find the murderer), so if that means they let him sit above the law... maybe they saw that as what it takes to catch someone who put himself above the law.

L takes cases that are interesting to him - maybe those are the cases that he doesn't think conventional law enforcement can't handle.  Conventional law enforcement absolutely couldn't handle the Kira case.

Is L the greatest person alive?  I don't know, not prepared to say that.  He was after someone who was proving to be a mass murderer.  I'm sure Hitler thought he was improving things by killing all those Jews, Gypsys, Poles and homosexuals (and by the way, anyone else who got in his way).

 L did go to some extreme measures to save the lives of members of his task force who found their lives in danger - Light's own father who crashed the truck into the tv station to collect the evidence - he arranged to have the entire force out front so the man could get out of the building.  He arranged with a con man to set up a scheme to save the life of Matsuda when he got over his head with that corporation with the death note from Light (sorry, forgetting the name, only seen it once).  

I mean, if you think Light was morally right with what he was doing, then yeah, there will be all kinds of justifications for his actions.  I don't, and he creeped me out.  I think he started out wanting to make a perfect word, and was conflicted a bit in the beginning, but I think he liked killing. He liked having that power and the feeling of godhood that it gave him.   Thank goodness he went down in flames at the end, and I'm happy it was Matsuda, the idiot, who came through for them in the end, shooting him.  That was the only acceptable end to that sad, deranged little man. I was happy that ultimately, L won in the end, even if it had to be carried out by his successor.  

When someone puts themselves above the law, that's the only just end to them.  He wanted to be a god.  So much for that hubris on his part.  Yeah, he went down in flames.  Part of me pitied him for what he could have been, the other part laughed.

[Meilag32]

That's a slippery slope to go down before you end up just like the KGB or Gestapo.  What if I was told by the govt. to find someone you loved, using whatever means necessary.  What would you do if I asked you that person's whereabouts?  What if I didn't even have to tell you why I was looking for them?  Would you cooperate?  If you didn't, I would simply kill someone else you loved to get you to talk, and if you still refused, I'd simply kill you and move on to other leads.  Simple as that.  Since the govt. condoned it, I guess you agree with my actions?  Granted, Misa was guilty of being the 2nd Kira.  But L had no way of knowing that.  All the evidence he had just showed that Misa had handled the tapes.  For all he knew, she could have been threatened by Kira to handle the tapes. 

Nope.  He puts no more consideration into picking cases besides if it will hold his interest.  He is just like Dr. House you said.  And House never cared about saving the people, he just wanted to solve the puzzle.  Same as L.  Helping people was just a side-effect. 

I can guarantee you he's not.  Neither was Light, but if left alone Light was only killing criminals.  Anything that happened after L died can't be used as reasoning for L's actions.  Hitler knew what he was doing.  He used the Jews and the others as scapegoats to blame the problems that Germany was facing.  He knew they weren't actually doing all the stuff he was accusing them of.  But they were useful as scapegoats.  Politicians still do it today (not the deadly extreme, obviously).  I would have done it, too.  I would have stopped or slowed it down as the war progressed.  I always thought he took using them as a scapegoat too far. 

GOing to those extreme lengths (and the conman's codename was Aiber) doesn't prove he really cared about them as people.  They were useful assets.  I don't discard or throw away tools until I've gotten a full use out of them.  L thought that callously toward people, too.  Perhaps not as much, but to a good degree, yes.

I do think Light was right.  If a real Death Note actually fell into our real world and I got it, you would see the same thing start to happen.  I never saw any conflict in the beginning.  I mean, besides immediately following that first kill.  But he got over that within minutes.  After that there was no conflict.  And who doesn't like killing?  Depending on who it is, there can be a definite sense of satisfaction, or it can be sadly bittersweet, or simply business.  I hated the ending.  Why do the guys I identify with always die?!!?  Matsuda...I hate him for shooting Light.   But my real hatred is reserved for him...NEAR!!!  That little punk.  If I was Light, I would have set up some explosives somewhere to kill everyone if something goes wrong.  

Really?  The only just end?  I laugh at how people with different moral and/or societal opinions are demonized.  It shows the failings of the rest of you.  You know, "evil" people are people, too.  I can understand standing against Light or others like that.  We understand that.  But don't pity us.  Its sickening.  And the part of you that laughed when Light died?  How was that part any better than him?

Considering how much you hate Light, I'd be interested to hear you opinion of Lelouch Lamperouge.  He's a character from a different series that draws a lot of comparisons to Light (although I think there are some fundamental differences). 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Light was a serial killer and a mass murderer.  He killed people conviicted of crimes and suspected of crimes, cops, people he was done using, etc. Justice was served.  So much for godhood.  

L took care to protect his task force, giving them fake IDs and those belts so he could be summoned if they ran into trouble.  He was pretty torn up when that one cop was killed outside the tv station, and look what he made happen to get Light's father out of there safely.  Look at the elaborate plan he came up with to get Matsuda out alive.  That safe cracker and conman?  They were hired. They had a job to do and they did it.  It's not like L had them killed once he was done with them.

I started watching it from the beginning again.  It sounded like it wasn't so much that he takes only the cases that interest him, he takes the ones that the conventional police forces CAN'T solve - I guess those are the ones that interest him.  Good thing he was there too to solve those cases.  I need to see the movies that were made, because I don't know much of anything about them.

What L did to Misa I didn't care for, but he had good reason to believe that she knew who Kira was and was likely the second Kira.  If you're charged with finding a serial killer and you have a lead that looked to him to be a solid one, you'd want to do what it takes to get the information you need.  Well, maybe not, since the mass murderer seems to be your hero.

I've never heard of Lelouch Lamperouge.  I'm a fairly late bloomer to anime, so there is much I haven't seen. :\  What's the show?

[Meilag32]

From a goody-two-shoes point of view, maybe.  I don't see it that way.  He never killed those suspected of crimes.  It was mentioned he made sure that they had actually committed the crime.  He didn't kill cops.  Only those who tried to stop him.  Once the cops gave up, the police force was safe. 

I'm not saying he didn't protect them.  But that can't tell you how what they meant to him or how much.  No, L was not torn up when Ukita died.  He didn't show any emotion, same as always.  He told the others not to do what he did, but Ukita was very quickly forgotten by L.  Again, Chief Yagami and Matsuda were still useful to him.  And as for Aiber and Wedy, their situation is even more complicated.  He didn't hire them.  They help L in exchange for him not turning them over to the authorities for their many crimes.  It's blackmail.

Yes, he takes cases that the police can't solve, but only ones that interest him.  If there was a case that the police couldn't solve yet he wasn't interested, he wouldn't take it.  The anime really doesn't explain it at all.  Yes, all hail L for solving those cases!  And pity the victims of the cases he didn't feel like doing.  Because he sure as sh*t didn't care about them.  The movies are OK.  Just a rehashing of the first half of the series.  Nothing too spectacular stands out that wasn't done elsewhere.  You should read the manga.  That's the original source material and offers more insight into the story and the characters.

Yes, he did have reason to involve her because of the tapes.  But you can't say he didn't overstep his boundaries.  The other Task Force members certainly thought he did.  But he was holding her because he thought she was the 2nd Kira, an assumption he absolutely no evidence to back up.  Yes, "you'd want to do what it takes to get the information you need".  So you believe in hurting however many innocents it takes in order to catch one bad guy.  1. Light is not a mass murderer.  2.  He's less my hero, and more exactly like me.  His thought patterns and actions seem to mirror me.  

He's from a series called Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion.  It's about this high school guy who gains a special power and uses it (and not always in a nice way) to try and make the world a better place (in this case, specifically for his sister).  Sound familiar?  It lacks the pyschological-detective-thriller thing that Death Note has, but it's still good.  And it's got robots. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Of course L overstepped boundaries.  They had  serial killer on their hands and they didn't know how he was doing the killing.  He was going to do what it takes to find that person without unduly risking the lives of those working for him.

L worked to protect his task force's lives.  Light worked to keep the other "Kiras" from getting caught.  He didn't give a rat's **beast** about the other kiras or anyone who was helping him. He just didn't want anything leading back to him.  He had no humanity left in him.  He's a perfect example of a character who had lost his soul.  Yeah, I had hope for him when he gave up the death note, but sadly he got it back turned back into the thing he had become. Or maybe was all along, I don't know.  We didn't see much of him before he found the note. He was a brilliant and bored high school kid, that's all we saw.  

All that said, I understand why someone would think Light was a hero (his evil actions did have desired results).  Hitler and Stalin were heroes to some also.  To others, they were not.

Meh, robots interest me not at all. I have the Death Note manga on order and should have it in a few days.  I can't wait to read it!

I'm not saying that I think L is a saint, far from it.  

This has to be the most brilliant story.  An argument can be made that Light is evil and that Light was the hero.  Which side one falls on says a lot about their belief systems, mindsets and experiences.  I haven't talked about it with too many people at all so far, so I have no idea what percentage of the show's fans consider Kira a hero and what percentage consider him a villain.  It's cool that it can go either way, depending on where someone is coming from.

[lupinfan83]

Yin and Yang.  Light was definitely evil with a splash of good intention, while L was good with a splash of questionable investigating methods.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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lupinfan83 wrote:

Yin and Yang.  Light was definitely evil with a splash of good intention, while L was good with a splash of questionable investigating methods.

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Good one!

If there was anything redeeming about Light it was his (initial) intention.  As the story went on, I had to wonder what his actual goal was, a better world or to be the god of that world.

L's treatment of Misa was bad, but looking at how he treated the people helping him as opposed to Light's treatment of the people helping him were quite different.  L was protective of his people's lives.  Light didn't want the people helping him to make mistakes that would lead attention back to HIM.  Light didn't care about the people who were helping him, and of course they would no doubt be killed when they are no longer useful.

But, as you say, neither was pure.

[Meilag32]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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lupinfan83 wrote:

Yin and Yang.  Light was definitely evil with a splash of good intention, while L was good with a splash of questionable investigating methods.

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Good one!

If there was anything redeeming about Light it was his (initial) intention.  As the story went on, I had to wonder what his actual goal was, a better world or to be the god of that world.

L's treatment of Misa was bad, but looking at how he treated the people helping him as opposed to Light's treatment of the people helping him were quite different.  L was protective of his people's lives.  Light didn't want the people helping him to make mistakes that would lead attention back to HIM.  Light didn't care about the people who were helping him, and of course they would no doubt be killed when they are no longer useful.

But, as you say, neither was pure.

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Unfortunately, you can't really how tell how much either one had.  You people see Light's immediate "evilness" as you would think it.  But when I look at L, there's a cruelness there, one he's well aware of.  That cruelty is merely directed a certain way.  Light's evil more evident than L's, but it doesn't mean L has less.  The vice-versa could be said for the amount of good in each of them. 

[gamergirl1155]

L reminds me of Sherlock Holmes in a way, they both are social-rejects yet have high IQ's and what L does is usually for justice though sometimes he may break a few minor laws in order to get it done. however Light though he says he does it for justice only uses that as an excuse seeing as how he then goes on about being the God of a new world shows that instead of helping the world become a greater place he wants to rule the world. in a way he is the new Hitler. Hitler it was jews, Light it was criminals, they both had followers but Light hides behind the Kira name and works his way in secret inside the task force where as Hitler does it in the open so in the end Light is the evil one

[robertje]

O no you did not call Misa an annoying **beast**!!! rofl 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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robertje wrote:

O no you did not call Misa an annoying **beast**!!! rofl 

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ROFL!!  No I didn't, but I have to say I'm greatly amused by the word they replaced it with.  What I said wasn't even that bad - I hear it a lot from my British friends and even on Brit TV (starts with a "t" ends with a "t").

I thought she was really anoying at first, but as the series went on she got less and less annoying.  I've probably watched it six or seven times by now and now she doesn't bother me at all.  Now I mostly feel sorry for her.  She's madly in love with someone who doesn't know how to love.  At the very least he has no room in his heart for it.   Just looking at his face when she clings to him will tell you how he feels.  Maybe towards the end he didn't mind her so much.

I really liked Light a lot when he was without his memories.  Now he's just creepy, like Ted Bundy only 100 times worse.

[robertje]

But you gotta figure that it was all for what he believed to be the better good of humanity, he didnt have time for girls, not until he was as he said God, Misa was actually the only girl Light could stand even if it was for her powers. But by the end he used other ppl way more than her, making me come to believe that he was actually coming to accept her for who she is. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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robertje wrote:

But you gotta figure that it was all for what he believed to be the better good of humanity, he didnt have time for girls, not until he was as he said God, Misa was actually the only girl Light could stand even if it was for her powers. But by the end he used other ppl way more than her, making me come to believe that he was actually coming to accept her for who she is. 

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It's hard to say, they didn't show them together much late in the series.  He DID keep her around even after he made her give up the notebook, but he WAS seeing an awful lot of Takada.

That's something that surprised me, that he didn't just kill her. She wasn't of any use to him any more.  i guess he just never went home.  Maybe he felt something for her, who knows.  And you could be right he may have actually started coming to accept her for who she was.    I'm reading the manga now but haven't gotten that far.  

I mean really, he didn't have to worry about Rem killing him, 'cause she was already dead.  At least in the series, he seemed to be mostly avoiding her.

[lupinfan83]

I don't think Misa ever got the credit she deserved. She found Light, still helped him when his memory was gone, and actually was the only surviving "Kira" in the end (although she supposedly committed suicide afterwards)

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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lupinfan83 wrote:
I don't think Misa ever got the credit she deserved. She found Light, still helped him when his memory was gone, and actually was the only surviving "Kira" in the end (although she supposedly committed suicide afterwards)

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LOL, if you can call that "credit" I'd say you were right.  Actually you ARE right.

[Meilag32]

Of course she deserves credit.  Even pawns deserve credit, for without them and their sacrifices how could the King triumph? 

And she did commit suicide.  It wasn't seen in the series, but the How to Read 13 says it was so. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

Of course she deserves credit.  Even pawns deserve credit, for without them and their sacrifices how could the King triumph? 

And she did commit suicide.  It wasn't seen in the series, but the How to Read 13 says it was so. 

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Yeah I read that.  It's perfectly in character too. She was so invested in Light that she didn't have anything for herself.  That was pretty evident from the start - "use me, just love me."

It's really too bad that she couldn't focus on someone who would actually love her and take care of her.  She was a sad, tragic character and I really do feel sorry for her.  Heck, I feel sorry for her shinigami as well.  Misa was basically Rem's baby - Rem saw something in her that touched her heart (or whatever shinigamis use for a heart).  

Misa annoyed me greatly when she first appeared but as the series wore on, that faded.  Now she's just a pitiable creature.