Death Note

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

What a jerk.

He wasn't one in the beginning. High school kid, naturally idealistic as inteligent high school kids can be.  He saw a world that was going bad and thought he found a way to fix it.  Yeah, he was getting results, but who WAS this guy?

Megalomaniac.  Narcissist.  He used and discarded people like so much toilet paper.  He was a serial killer responsible not only for the deaths of thousands of people (some of whom didn't have to die), but of Watari (philanthropist, genius), L (genius detective), Rem (unfortunate shinigami who had the bad luck of caring about an idiot like Misa), and his own father.  

Let's not forget Takaga Kiyomi, who he knew in college.  She worshiped Kira.  He used her then killed her when she was of no further user.  What a jerk.

When L died at Rem's hand (killing her too), he held L in his arms, and looked into his face with that smile to let him know he beat him.  Then screamed in "sorrow" when he died.  What a jerk.

Even when his father died.  He was coldly calculating how he could get his father to use his last remaining strength to write Mello's name in the book to kill him.  His father died, so Light howled in "grief."  Grief over what? The death of his father or the fact that he didn't kill Mello?  I didn't believe him.  What a jerk.

To someone on the outside, only seeing the results of what he was doing, I can see where someone would think he was a hero.  The viewers however, were given more than a glimpse into his interior life, his thoughts, mental state, etc.  We could see that he was a cold, calulating, cruel narcissist with delusions of godhood.  

Actually, this time through, I did feel some sympathy for the poor high school kid who found that book with how far he'd fallen.  That book destroyed him mentally, wiping out any vestige of humanity that he may have had.  All for the amusement of a bored shinigami.  Which brings me to Ryuk.  He started it because he was bored.  This was all for his own entertainment and he didn't give a crap about Light or anyone else.  What a jerk.

[DecorativeArmonia]

Just like Aizen.

[Meilag32]

Being nice doesn't get you anywhere in the world.  You have to be harsh to survive.

Just because you kill people doesn't make you a serial killer.  Do you call soldiers serial killers?  Most of the people he killed were criminals.  Who cares what happens to them?  Society is better off without them.  The others knew the risks when they decided to try and kill Light.  You're bashing Light for simply defending himself?  Wouldn't you do the same?  And technically, he didn't kill his father, Mello did. 

So you feel bad for Takada?  She killed people as Kira, too.  She even killed Mello.  You feel sympathy for her yet none for Light.  That doesn't make sense.  I laughed so hard when she burned.  It was brilliant, just what I would have done. 

L probably appreciated that smile.  That let him know that he was right all along.  Light having to act doesn't qualify him as a jerk.  I think it makes him a good actor.  

Light still had to take care of Mello.  This could have been his last chance.  And who says his grief that his father had just died wasn't real?  He may not have respected his father but that doesn't mean he didn't love him.

What you say we saw is merely one perspective.  I saw an intelligent man with a worthy goal who knew that you need to crack some eggs to make an omelet.

The Note didn't destroy him.  It merely let him act on his true feelings.  Nobody is instantly corrupted by something.  Society was actually destroying him, forcing him to talk and act a certain way, a way that society deemed acceptable.  The Death Note freed him from that, allowing his true self the power to finally act. 

I agree concerning Ryuk.  I have no problem with killing people and other harsh methods, if they serve a purpose.  Light was doing it to try and create a world without crime.  Ryuk did it out of sheer boredom.  That may make Ryuk the cruelest character in the show. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

I guess it depends on your world view.

I'm against killing people who don't need to be killed. Matsuda (and Light) were right when they said that some people probably should die.  But how can a human put himself into a position to determine who should die and who shouldn't?  

Let's face it, Light was a human.  All he knew was what he saw in the news reports when he killed those people.  

Does human life have any meaning?  Is it worth preserving whenever possible?  Can the human be slavaged/rehabilitated?  Did Kira/Light even care?  No he absolutely didn't care.  Since the show let us in on his thinking and actions, life meant nothing to him.  Nothing.  Once they were of no more use, they were dead.

What about you? Does life mean anything at all to you?  Is a human life something to be cherished and protected as much as possible, or are people just there to be used and killed when they are of no use?  I think that is what the show asks, and it's what I want to know.

I'll say it right here - I am passionately pro life. I have serious problems with the death penalty (MAYBE with exeptions for serial killers or cop killers.  Maybe).  I should also state that I believe in self defense.  I am licensed to carry a gun, I'm trained in their use and I have several in my house.  I live in Florida and home invasions are popular around here - until an invader is shot by a home owner.  Yeah, kick my door in and I shoot first and ask questions later.   Florida law says I have the right.  Killing someone while they are in the commission of a crime of murder or rape isn't THAT much of a problem for me.  it's still a problem, but when needed, it's an option.  Fortunately Florida law doesn't allow a wounded criminal to sue the intended victim who shot their attacker, so I'm free to wound any potential attacker instead of kill them (like I've been ttrained).  I choose not to kill.

All that said, I don't want to kll anyone.  I have guns for the same reason I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen.  I pray to God I never have to use any of them, but they are there if needed.  

I have to worry about someone who is eager to kill someone, even if they are guilty of whatever they were killed for.  Life is not cheap, it's precious, even the guilty's.   There is something pathological about someone who thinks nothing about killing other humans for whatever reason.  It's scary and evil. I'm not someone Kira would target in his pogrom of wiping bad people off the planet, but he was clearly wrong.

I mean, I understand outsiders cheering him on.  Those who don't know him and only see the results of a lower crime rate and elimination of war, yeah. But those of use who watch the show and see what he's thinking and what he does - everyone is expendable.  No life matters. He didn't care about life, even his passionate supporters were liable to be killed if they inconvenienced him. Even if they didn't - Takaga he promised would be the goddess of the new world he was building.  And what did he do when she was kidnapped? He killed her!!  Her life meant nothing to him.  Is that your hero? WTF DO you care about?  

Light obviously lost all humanity, any sense of empathy with his fellow human beings.  He had it to begin with, but he got wrapped up in being god of this perfect world he was building and everyone - EVERYONE - was expendible.  **beast**, get involved with Kira and you'd die because you suddenly became inconvenient.  Is that what you want?

[Meilag32]

Humans put themselves into that position everyday.  When a person is sentenced to death, people decided to kill this person rather than imprison them.  And who else is going to make the decision?  Some mythical deity?  If your God wants to come down and set up his own court system, that's fine, but until then humans will always decide human fate. 

Light did more than just watch news reports.  Light explained that he looked into whether these people had actually done the crime.  Suspected criminals were never sentenced.  He always waited until these people were found guilty or pulled strings to get off even though all evidence points to them being guilty. 

Does human life have any meaning?  Not really.  Is it worth preserving whenever possible?  No, actually that's detrimental to the laws of nature.  Can people be rehabilitated?  No.  It's always in there, hidden in the core of what they are.  Trust me on this.  It will never, ever truly go away.  Did Light care?  Surprisingly, yes.  I wouldn't have, but he did.  That's why he wanted to create a new world without crime where innocents didn't need fear crime.  You focus on the "go" portion.  If he really wanted to simply take over the world, there were far simpler ways than killing criminals and getting the support of regular civilians.  And he would have said that he wanted to do it simply to rule the world.  Yet he always brought up this perfect, peaceful world.

To me, life holds no more meaning than that of a potential tool.  That's all I think of people.  Potential tools, nothing more.  I do not care about them, I do not sympathize with them.  I routinely use and discard people.  If they're lucky, they'll be no worse for the wear.  If they're unlucky, a variety of misfortunes may have befallen them.  Though I don't believe in killing for no reason.  I would never just go out and start shooting people.  That's pointless and wasteful.  But I don't shy away from killing when it's necessary.  It's just that our definition of what's necessary may differ.

Good.  Train well with those guns.  Never be weak.  I too am a gun owner.

Evil?  "Evil" is merely a perspective, one which no longer concerns me.  Just because it differs from what you believe, you automatically assume it's wrong. 

I never said Light was my hero.  I merely thought he offered a good solution to a problem that had no other solution offered.  When the current system breaks, you replace it with a new one that works.  Light did care about life.  He just cared less about it than you.  Mostly about the lives who were actively trying to catch and kill him.  Ha ha...why the sudden sympathy for Takada?  She killed many people too.  Lots of people.  But anyway, Light was never my hero.  Hell, if I was there, I would have tried killing him.  For different reasons, though.  So what DO I care about?  Why, the only thing a person like me could care about: myself. 

This is why I know that your "Light obviously lost all humanity" statement is wrong.  Because I know what having no humanity is like.  And he had it.  It was still there.  Just like how you could never know what it's like to be born blind, you can never really tell if a person has no humanity.  

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

That's really scary.

[Meilag32]

I'm not scary, I'm a realist.  Maybe a little scary...

But there's no need to be afraid.  Like with Kira, most people would never need to fear me.

[EvilsergE]

Light does like REAL BOSS.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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EvilsergE wrote:
Light does like REAL BOSS.

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Well he sure eats a pretty mean potato chip.

[lupinfan83]

Light was weak. When he didn't have the death note he was a man anyone would respect. But give him the power to be a "god", he was overtaken by evil.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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lupinfan83 wrote:
Light was weak. When he didn't have the death note he was a man anyone would respect. But give him the power to be a "god", he was overtaken by evil.

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That's right.  And in the end... madness.

[Meilag32]

What?  Light without the Death Note was a person who seemed to lack the drive to do anything but go through the motions of a life that seemed planned out for him.  Yeah, real respectful.

[lupinfan83]

Even the creator of Death Note said that if Light never got the Deth Note he would have been the next L!

[Meilag32]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

That's right.  And in the end... madness.

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An opinion formed from ignorance of what true madness is.  Killing people doesn't qualify for insanity.  Trying to better the world (even using a method you don't agree with) doesn't qualify either.

[Meilag32]

No, he would have worked with L, not become L.

And that just falls into a life that seemed planned for him.  He was going to school, planning to attend college, and then join law enforcement.  Working with L would have been the eventual endgame of that career path.  Yet he didn't seem thrilled about his future until he got the Death Note.  Actually, he didn't seem to thrilled with anything.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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lupinfan83 wrote:
Even the creator of Death Note said that if Light never got the Deth Note he would have been the next L!

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It was pointed out that he would have worked with L.

It was said in the show that he aspired to law enforcement, so that would have fit in with what he wanted to do.  A good way to make the world a better place, and we saw that he and L worked well together.  They even thought alike.

He would have been a lot happier and would have lived longer had he not found the death note and worked with L.  With the two of them working together, they could have accomplished so much.

[Meilag32]

How do you know Light would have been happier without the Death Note?  He'd probably live longer, true, but a longer life doesn't necessarily mean better.

Watch the first episode.  Did Light seemed like he enjoyed anything?  Family, friends, school, working to be a cop?  He didn't.  I can tell.  Because he did what I do: hide my true feelings behind a mask.  Those of us so used to playing that game, know when someone else is doing it. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

How do you know Light would have been happier without the Death Note?  He'd probably live longer, true, but a longer life doesn't necessarily mean better.

Watch the first episode.  Did Light seemed like he enjoyed anything?  Family, friends, school, working to be a cop?  He didn't.  I can tell.  Because he did what I do: hide my true feelings behind a mask.  Those of us so used to playing that game, know when someone else is doing it. 

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We met him, he was in high school. Hadn't even had a chance to go out into the world.  He sure seemed engaged and enjoying himself while working with L before he got his memories back.  I think we got a glimpse there of what he would have been.  You say that it was a fake personality, an overlay.  You haven't explained that, since he was essentially without his memories of the death note.  At least going by the rules they spelled out in the show, he was sans memories, so that was the real Light.

Quite a difference, sitting in a classroom where he wasn't challenged to actually working on a real case with a detective who was his intellectual equal.

[Meilag32]

He was able to experience plenty.  He even helped his father with cases.  And I'm not just talking about his classwork.  The time we saw him engage with people, it wasn't real interaction.  It was a facade. 

That Light isn't Light.  Ryuk even said that while most people remained essentially the same minus the memories, Light appeared to have changed into a completely different person.  This was spelled out. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

He was able to experience plenty.  He even helped his father with cases.  And I'm not just talking about his classwork.  The time we saw him engage with people, it wasn't real interaction.  It was a facade. 

That Light isn't Light.  Ryuk even said that while most people remained essentially the same minus the memories, Light appeared to have changed into a completely different person.  This was spelled out. 

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Where was it spelled out?  Manga or anime?  He WAS a completely different person from when he had the note.  Ryuk met him when he was bored in high school, so yeah, he would have been different.  I just don't remember where it was spelled out that he was different.

I just finished a Trigun marathon, need to watch a DVD from Netflix tomorrow, then it's another Death Note marathon.  Where should I be looking, since I seemed to have missed that the last several times I watched it.

[Meilag32]

Ryuk said it.  Ryuk said that while most people who used the Death Note only lost their memories but besides that had acted normally, Light not only lost his memories but seemed to become a completely different person (assuming from what he was before he ever found the Death Note). 

I can't tell you one exact second of the show to make you realize.  It's just an accumulation of all that you see of Light before he used the Death Note for the first time.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

Ryuk said it.  Ryuk said that while most people who used the Death Note only lost their memories but besides that had acted normally, Light not only lost his memories but seemed to become a completely different person (assuming from what he was before he ever found the Death Note). 

I can't tell you one exact second of the show to make you realize.  It's just an accumulation of all that you see of Light before he used the Death Note for the first time.

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An episode title or a description of the circumstances surrounding his statements would help.  I've watched it more than a half dozen times so far and haven't heard him saying anything remotely like that.  Ryuk wasn't even around when Light was without his memories because Light had given up the death note.  

If and when I see this line I will tell you, but I don't remember anything like that. I like Ryuk so I tend to listen to what he's saying, but it IS possible I missed it.

In any case, I will be running through the show again starting Friday, so I'll be looking for it.  Doesn't Light find the death note in like the first five or 10 minutes of the series?  Yeah, we're going to get a full view of what he was like in those few minutes.  We see him in school, bored, sickened by the crime and evil in the world, but who isn't sickened by the evil?   Ryuk knew nothing about Light before he found the notebook.  Of course Light without his memories is going to be completely different from the Light who had his memories of the notebook.  That's the Light that would have been had he never found the thing.

"[Ryuk said] while most people who used the Death Note only lost their memories but besides that had acted normally, Light not only lost his memories but seemed to become a completely different person (assuming from what he was before he ever found the Death Note). "

The only comments I remember Ryuk making about people with death notes are:

1. They suffer pain and fear and worry about where to hide it.

2. They suffer misfortune - and remarked that Soichiro, even though he died, died happy thinking that Light wasn't Kira, but then he pointed out that Soichiro never wrote a name in the book.

I'm very interested in seeing those comments you say he made about death note owners who lose their memories.   An approximation would be helpful so I don't miss it (and yes, I do miss things, that's why I watch stuff over and over and over again).

[Achi]

I hated how they made Light so different without the death note. How anti-death he became without the means to cause it. He admitted that he shared sentiments with the original Kira of believing that some people did deserve to die, but refusing to manipulate Misa into helping with the case and fighting against allowing the deaths of those hundreds of people or whatever Yotsuba was doing... Did the Death Note's presence really cause that in him? Though he had no simple means to cause death, that didn't mean he should've detested practices he himself would use if he did... Above all, he should have believed in using even dirty means to what he believed would be a greater end, Note or no Note. I liked non-Kira Light as a person, but I thought that was either poorly done, or the writers intended to show that the Death Note really did just corrupt him and he truly was a very moral person.

And I don't remember Ryuk ever saying that in the dubbed version (I never saw the subbed version though). It's possible he would've said something like that in the manga though.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Achi wrote:
I hated how they made Light so different without the death note. How anti-death he became without the means to cause it. He admitted that he shared sentiments with the original Kira of believing that some people did deserve to die, but refusing to manipulate Misa into helping with the case and fighting against allowing the deaths of those hundreds of people or whatever Yotsuba was doing... Did the Death Note's presence really cause that in him? Though he had no simple means to cause death, that didn't mean he should've detested practices he himself would use if he did... Above all, he should have believed in using even dirty means to what he believed would be a greater end, Note or no Note. I liked non-Kira Light as a person, but I thought that was either poorly done, or the writers intended to show that the Death Note really did just corrupt him and he truly was a very moral person.

And I don't remember Ryuk ever saying that in the dubbed version (I never saw the subbed version though). It's possible he would've said something like that in the manga though.

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Light mentioned when he first met Ryuk that  (he thought) the note had a 'supernatural power' to tempt the finder to use it. Maybe it did.  The notebook's purpose was for killing.  In the hands of a shinigami, it was used to prolong his or her life.  That's where they got their life, from the remaining lifespans of those they killed. 

In the hands of a human, it's possible that it would influence them towards acting out on thoughts of death towards those that person disliked.  If that's the case, then it's possible that the note with that influence would corrupt a susceptible human into writing names and killing people that they otherwise wouldn't have.

It was mentioned more than once, by Matsuda and Light, that there are people that they think the would would be better off without, but acutally KILLING those people?  No.  But under the influence of the death note, those deaths are not only possible but highly desireable.   Light was definitely influenced by the notebook and allowed himself to act out his darkest impulses - not ONLY killing people but manipulating people the way he refused to do when L asked him to with Misa.

Light was a very moral person, but under the influence of that supernatural notebook whose sole purpose was to kill, he was corrupted.  Out of a desire to do good, he did evil, even justifying it to himself.  Light even admitted more than once that what Kira was doing was evil, but for a greater purpose (one of them in the final episode, the other in "Justice").

I watch the show subbed, and I've read the manga (but only read the manga once) and don't remember Ryuk saying that either.  

[Achi]

If that wasn't just poor writing, I agree with you. Misa retained her general personality (unyielding love and loyalty for Light) even without the Death Note, so why was Light so different? Misa didn't really change through the Death Note, so it was natural that she was nearly identical to her no-Note self. So why did Light become the figure of morality without it? What Ryuk did mention on episode 9 or 10 after L revealed himself to Light (after Light goes into a fit about L and ends up laughing like a moron) was that Light was usually so calm but now it seems the Kira thing was getting to him. So maybe it wasn't even the Death Note. Maybe the power of being Kira and being so arrogantly consumed by his belief that he is pure justice really turned him into the vile "jerk" you saw in the Near-Mello arc. So I reject Meilag's assertion that Kira-Light was the real Light Yagami.