Death Note

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

I just finished another Death Note marathon last night (probably a dozen times by now), and something that slipped by me until now was something Matsuda said when he was ranting at Light at the end. 

The subtitles were no help with this - It was after he shot Light's arm and light told him to shoot the others, the subtitles said "you let your father die. How can you act like it's nothing?" 

The word he used for father was 'chichi,' which is the word one uses for their OWN father. When referring to someone ELSE'S father, it's 'otosan.' 

That's a distinction that's lost in English. It's as if Matsuda was saying that Light 'let daddy die...' 
I'm just a beginner, but if anyone reading this is actually fluent and more experienced in Japanese can correct me, I'd appreciate it. I just thought it surprising that he'd use chichi instead of otosan. 

When we first met Matsuda and the elder Yagami, I thought Matsuda was his assistant. He was there at the conference and was there giving Yagami a cup of coffee after a long day of investigating. Yagami was supportive of him when Matsuda expressed regret at opening his mouth at the meeting. 

Then I got the impression that Matsuda was Yagami's puppy. Aizawa yelled and Matsuda always apologized, but when Yagami yelled at him for fooling around about the belt, Matsuda actually looked devastated. Yagami looked like he had taken young Matsuda under his wing, and apparently, Matsuda looked at him not only as a father figure but like his own father. 

Being the naive sort that he was, he no doubt felt that Light was like his younger brother. If he felt that way about Light and Soichiro, his use of 'chihi' would make perfect sense. He certainly trusted him and thought of him as a friend, so the betrayal at the end was more than he could bear, so the poor thing snapped. 


[LoverDemon]

Hm, now that is quite interesting indeed, I never got a full chance to complete the subbed version of the series, but I'll definitely have to keep an eye out for that one.

And you might be right about that one, Matsuda always did seem that he had a deeper relationship with Yagami that could be seen without looking at it close enough.

But then again this is Japan, it is possible that was the point behind it, the Japanese tend to have a deeper connection with that, everyone treats everyone else with respect, (bows, handshakes etc.), that respect could lead to much more especially if one person has no one to look up to, until they meet a person that is a leader and they learn to follow them, along the way seeing them as a father figure, that seems to fit Matsuda, he always had the childlike kind of personality, while Yagami was always the authority.

This could have been what was originally intended, this is Japan so they tend to see things in different ways than we do, it could have just been a mis-translation, but I think this was simply cut out to server any deeper ties, to make it look like a normal relationship between a employee and there boss.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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LoverDemon wrote:

Hm, now that is quite interesting indeed, I never got a full chance to complete the subbed version of the series, but I'll definitely have to keep an eye out for that one.

And you might be right about that one, Matsuda always did seem that he had a deeper relationship with Yagami that could be seen without looking at it close enough.

But then again this is Japan, it is possible that was the point behind it, the Japanese tend to have a deeper connection with that, everyone treats everyone else with respect, (bows, handshakes etc.), that respect could lead to much more especially if one person has no one to look up to, until they meet a person that is a leader and they learn to follow them, along the way seeing them as a father figure, that seems to fit Matsuda, he always had the childlike kind of personality, while Yagami was always the authority.

This could have been what was originally intended, this is Japan so they tend to see things in different ways than we do, it could have just been a mis-translation, but I think this was simply cut out to server any deeper ties, to make it look like a normal relationship between a employee and there boss.

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Yeah!  Matsuda was definitely a childish personality, and despite polite conventions in Japanese society felt closer to Soichihro than was socially acceptable to let on.  I won't post it here, but there is a clip on youtube that shows that scene with him saying it.  The first rant he said 'otosan' (speaking of someone else's father), then 'chichi.'

Yeah, they do do things differently in Japan, but just thinking about what was going on in Matsuda's mind and heart, there was some foreshadowing.  When Light and Soichiro were confined, Aizawa was unhappy, but Matsuda was distraught.  When the task force was told to split up into two groups to come up to meet Light, Matsuda was with Soichiro.  Aizawa, Mogi and Ukita went up afterwards.

Matsuda had been to their house before, but in episode 27, 'Abduction,'  they're all at the Yagami household.  Light and Soichiro had their suit jackets off and thrown over the back of the couch.  Matsuda left his on - not quite 'in group' at least when interacting with them in their house.

But, being the sweet, naive person he is, he no doubt thought of Soichiro as his father and Light as his brother.  In the manga, the final chapter is a scene one year later, Ide and Matsuda are together, talking on their way in to work.  Things had gone back to the way they were before Kira.  At one point Ide says to Matsuda, "You were fond of Light, weren't you?" then it shows Matsuda with a really sad look on his face.  Similar look that he had in the series after he denounced any thought that Light was Kira, the Soichiro confirmed that Light wasn't kira when he died.  That lingering shot of his face looking on the verge of tears kind of told me that his death hit Matsuda hardest of them all.

That's MY thinking at least.  But yeah.  

[Meilag32]

I agree that Matsuda definitely thought of Soichiro as a father-figure.  But I don't think he really thought of Soichiro as a real father and Light as a real brother.  I think it's more the way Japanese language and customs are rather than Matsuda thinking himself a part of the Yagami family. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Meilag32 wrote:

I agree that Matsuda definitely thought of Soichiro as a father-figure.  But I don't think he really thought of Soichiro as a real father and Light as a real brother.  I think it's more the way Japanese language and customs are rather than Matsuda thinking himself a part of the Yagami family. 

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I've been studying the language for over a year, and there are levels of formality, or politeness, that is used when referring to others, in group or not in group, particularly when referring to family members.

'Chichi' is extremely familiar and is not used when referring to someone else's father who is NOT in their in group, particularly one who is not part of the family.  Even then, it probably isn't used.  I'm going to have to ask my friend in Japan about this to get more detail.

People don't talk l ike that unless they consider (rightly or wrongly) that the person they are talking to is family.  Matsuda loved Soichiro and Light.  No clue if that feeling was returned on Soichiro's part, but on Light's part it absolutely was not.   I'm looking at what was going on in Matsuda's head and heart, particularly during this scene.

'Chichi' is the equivalent to 'daddy' or 'dad.'  Even in English, you probably wouldn't say to an acquaintance "I went and met dad at work."  You'd probably say "I met my father at work."  Or "I met my dad at work."    You'd only say "I met dad at work" to a sibling or maybe a parent.  Matsuda's using 'chichi' was the equivalent of speaking about Soichiro as his own father to someone who was his brother.

Whatever Matsuda thought during the course of the show, at that moment, Soichiro was (like) his own father and he used language that reflected that.

[Swymco]

Very interesting. These observations really do put a new light on the character for me. It certainly helps answer why he seemed so close to the Yagami family.

Spoiler

And helps explain why he would snap at the end of the show when he finds out that L is Kira. I always wondered why he pulled out his gun.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Swymco wrote:

Very interesting. These observations really do put a new light on the character for me. It certainly helps answer why he seemed so close to the Yagami family.

Spoiler

And helps explain why he would snap at the end of the show when he finds out that L is Kira. I always wondered why he pulled out his gun.

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He had his gun out already. He pulled it to shoot Mikami, but the SPK pulled their own.  He DOES have lightning fast reflexes, doesn't he?

I found out a few more things - he said "chichioya" which means father (and also the Japanese word used in the episode titled "Father").  My Japanese friend says that normally it's 'otousan' when speaking about someone else's father unless they were very close or related.  MAYBE if the speaker was of a higher status or older, but it's not usual.

Yeah, Yagami was a father figure to Matsuda.  Matsuda loved Light like his brother.  That made the betrayal even deeper, especially Light's attitude towards his father's death.  I think that's what put Matsuda over the edge.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Something else I just now thought of.

In the manga, when Soichiro died, a grief-stricken Matsuda grabbed Light in a hug from behind.  They left that out of the anime, probably because the director thought it looked better on paper than animated. :\  That too illustrates Matsuda's feelings towards Soichiro and Light.

[MafiaFlood]

Light called his father "oto-san" for the whole show, though. I don't think Matsuda's word choice was particularly significant of anything.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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MafiaFlood wrote:
Light called his father "oto-san" for the whole show, though. I don't think Matsuda's word choice was particularly significant of anything.

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Light called his father 'tousan' (without the honorific 'o').  'Otousan' is how outsiders refer to other people's fathers.  Light DID refer to him as chichi when talking to L coming out of the hospital when Soichiro had his heart attack.  It's ok and normal as far as I can make out, to use use 'chichi' or 'chichioya' when referring to your own father.  

I guess there's nothing really WRONG with referring to someone else's father as 'chichioya', but if someone's not in the son's 'In group' or family, it's almost always 'otousan.'  I'm getting mixed messages about the use of 'chichioya'.  This one looks pretty credible and pretty much echos most of what I've been reading:  http://nihongo.anthonet.com/family/.

Also of note, the kanji for the episode titled 'father' said 'chichioya.'

[MafiaFlood]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

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MafiaFlood wrote:
Light called his father "oto-san" for the whole show, though. I don't think Matsuda's word choice was particularly significant of anything.

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Light called his father 'tousan' (without the honorific 'o').  'Otousan' is how outsiders refer to other people's fathers.  Light DID refer to him as chichi when talking to L coming out of the hospital when Soichiro had his heart attack.  It's ok and normal as far as I can make out, to use use 'chichi' or 'chichioya' when referring to your own father.  

I guess there's nothing really WRONG with referring to someone else's father as 'chichioya', but if someone's not in the son's 'In group' or family, it's almost always 'otousan.'  I'm getting mixed messages about the use of 'chichioya'.  This one looks pretty credible and pretty much echos most of what I've been reading:  http://nihongo.anthonet.com/family/.

Also of note, the kanji for the episode titled 'father' said 'chichioya.'

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And it's very rude to refer to your own parents as "oyaji" and "ofukuro" but some anime characters do it. Some use "papa". Some use "tou-san" or "otou-san" or "otou-sama" or "chichi-ue".

I'm just saying that I don't think Matsuda's word choice was significant of anything, other than that being the way he talks.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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MafiaFlood wrote:

I'm just saying that I don't think Matsuda's word choice was significant of anything, other than that being the way he talks.

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You could be right.  I was struck by it and was looking for someone who speaks more Japanese than I do for comment/confirmation.  

Either way, he was hit pretty hard by Soichiro's death, then the betrayal at the end. If he wasn't so clueless, he might not have been as rabid, I think.

[Satoh]

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SpikesMrsSpooky wrote:

I just finished another Death Note marathon last night (probably a dozen times by now), and something that slipped by me until now was something Matsuda said when he was ranting at Light at the end. 

The subtitles were no help with this - It was after he shot Light's arm and light told him to shoot the others, the subtitles said "you let your father die. How can you act like it's nothing?" 

The word he used for father was 'chichi,' which is the word one uses for their OWN father. When referring to someone ELSE'S father, it's 'otosan.' 

That's a distinction that's lost in English. It's as if Matsuda was saying that Light 'let daddy die...' 
I'm just a beginner, but if anyone reading this is actually fluent and more experienced in Japanese can correct me, I'd appreciate it. I just thought it surprising that he'd use chichi instead of otosan. 

When we first met Matsuda and the elder Yagami, I thought Matsuda was his assistant. He was there at the conference and was there giving Yagami a cup of coffee after a long day of investigating. Yagami was supportive of him when Matsuda expressed regret at opening his mouth at the meeting. 

Then I got the impression that Matsuda was Yagami's puppy. Aizawa yelled and Matsuda always apologized, but when Yagami yelled at him for fooling around about the belt, Matsuda actually looked devastated. Yagami looked like he had taken young Matsuda under his wing, and apparently, Matsuda looked at him not only as a father figure but like his own father. 

Being the naive sort that he was, he no doubt felt that Light was like his younger brother. If he felt that way about Light and Soichiro, his use of 'chihi' would make perfect sense. He certainly trusted him and thought of him as a friend, so the betrayal at the end was more than he could bear, so the poor thing snapped. 


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I was sick yesterday and basically spent most of the day watching this in Japanese. To be honest it was the first time I watched this show and I've only watched the Japanese version. So far the VIIZ transaltion is spot on, except they twist the English out fo sequence with the actual dialouge so it would seem they're mistranslating all over the place but they're really rewording the flow of the sentance. 

That said, I didn't quite finish watching. I got to where Light gets the book back and L dies. 

Chichi means daddy, normally it's what kids would say and the term is meant to be affectionate. Otoosan is correct refering to someone else's father. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Yeah, the sentences, especially the longer ones ARE wildly out of order and I wondered about that, because I don't think they really needed to be THAT out of order.  It's just rearranged.

I can't get a consistent answer from people regarding it, I mean, watching it again, I could hear he said "chichioya" which maybe isn't quite so familiar. When you get to it, let know if that's what you hear too.  

I like your signature, "American Otaku (smile?)"

[Satoh]

Actually that kanji for smile is used as lol.

I finished it last night, what I think he said was chichi instead of chief, but I think Matsuda was distraught that Light ended up being Kira after all. That he let his father die thinking he was innocent, I think in the emotion of the moment he slipped and called Light's dad chichi like he was his own. Light even responded to that with a taunt.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Satoh wrote:
Actually that kanji for smile is used as lol.

I finished it last night, what I think he said was chichi instead of chief, but I think Matsuda was distraught that Light ended up being Kira after all. That he let his father die thinking he was innocent, I think in the emotion of the moment he slipped and called Light's dad chichi like he was his own. Light even responded to that with a taunt.

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I didn't know that!  My Japanese friends just use emoticons (probably because they're communicating with Westerners who would scratch their heads at the kanji.  Cool, I learned a new one today!.

Matsuda was ABSOLUTELY distraught at Light being Kira, his relationship with Soichiro notwithstanding.  He was staunchly defending Light and firmly believed in his innocence, so finding out that Light was not only Kira but had planned to kill them all had to be devastating to him.  It was a tense, terrifying situation, thinking they were going to die, then not dying, then finding the proof that Light was Kira.  I thought it was interesting, that when Matsuda lost his poo there in the warehouse, he didn't rant about thinking he was innocent and Light betrayed them all, it was all about Soichiro.

I don't suppose you've read the manga (yet).  There are some things in the manga that were left out of the anime which I kind of regret.  One of those was in the scene where Soichiro dies, Light is crying and the injured task force weeps quiet tears.  In the manga, Matsuda throws his arms around Light in a hug.  Little things like that (and a few comments that Matsuda made here and there) act as even more foreshadowing of Matsuda's snapping at the end.

The more I watch it the more I can see where it looks like Soichiro and Matsuda were fairly close - the elder Yagami did seem to have a fatherly element when interacting with Matsuda, and of course Matsuda was frequently yelled at and the only time he showed any REAL reaction to it was when Soichiro yelled at him.  He looked devastated.  And I love that scene with the two of them after the status meeting where Matsuda gives Soichiro the coffee then expresses regret at opening his mouth in the meeting.  Soichiro had the kindest expression on his face then supported him then even joked with him.

I love great characters, especially when the characters have interesting relationships, and Soichiro with Matsuda has to be my favorite.

[Satoh]

I haven't read the manga, I'd imagine there was a lot more they could have fit into the story but I think the story was well rounded. More so than a lot of other stories, only one recap episode. The character development was good, they didn't waste too much time trying to tell a backstory and the characters themselves were easy to relate to. I can't believe I didn't watch this sooner but then again I'm glad to have watched it when I did. I think I'm going to rewatch the series before offering any deeper conversation.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

I know what you mean. 

Yeah, watch it again. If you're anything like I am, you'll pick up more and more every time you watch it.  If you get the chance (and the funds), I highly recommend the manga.  There were a couple of lines that I thought "holy crap" that didn't make it into the anime, plus a dropped subplot or two (which I think are a good thing).  

For myself, if it's a story I really care about  i will watch it dozens of times. At least until I stop finding new things.  I tend to initialy try to take in the whole story and find out where the interesting relationships are and who are the most intereseting characters.  Then I watch it again to get more details about tthose characters and their relationship  Then again to see if there is anything else I missed.  Then again to polish things off.

I think if it's a story woth watching, it's a story worth memorising.  I have Cowboy Bebop memorised and am working on memorising Death Note. I am feeling an urge to memorise Darker Than Black and also Trigun too. Right now, Death Note rules, so the others will have to wait. ;D

[Satoh]

It's not that I don't have the money to get the manga, I lack the time and the desire to sit and read it. I totally think there are parts I missed because I mostly watched it from bed and I was dozing off in several places. And now that I've mastered my little commercial skipping trick on hulu I definitely want to rewatch.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

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Satoh wrote:
It's not that I don't have the money to get the manga, I lack the time and the desire to sit and read it. I totally think there are parts I missed because I mostly watched it from bed and I was dozing off in several places. And now that I've mastered my little commercial skipping trick on hulu I definitely want to rewatch.

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Ok, you're going to have to tell me how you skip the commercials on hulu - there's a tv show they have on there that I want to watch, but don't have the patience for the ads.

Yeah, I've watched stuff while sick, and I know a lot gets missed.  Oh, the BEST was when "The Stand" miniseries aired.  I was really sick with the flu (fever of 102 degrees), and every time someone said "I wonder if this 'Captain Trips' really exists. *koff koff*" I said "yeah, I know how they feel."  That's an awesome miniseries to watch while sick with the flu.  I have the DVD.  I get sick once every three or four years or so, and next time I come down with something, I'm watching it again. 

[Satoh]

It works about 60% of the time but watching in full screen when the commercials start you exit full screen, let the page auto reload from that and the commercials will get skipped.

[Meilag32]

Heh heh...Captain Trips.

The book was better.  And still only a precursor to more important events within the King universe. 

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

What's sad is, I have the book (got it after I watched the miniseries).  I just haven't gotten around to reading it yet.  I really need to.  Now that I'm thinking about it again, I have to dig it out and get started on it.

[SpikesMrsSpooky]

Well, I'm watching it again.  L refers to Soichiro as 'chichi' in a couple of places and even Ryuk called him that once.

I really need to sit down with a Japanese person and try to understand implications (if any) of using that term when talking to someone about that person's father.

[Satoh]

If you're close to the person, like a good friend it's no big deal. I ask about my friend's haha all the time. But in the show's case they're in a professional environment so it's inappropriate. In the end I think they were throwing it around to express a closer bond than coworkers.