Death Note

[Meilag32]

YES!!!!  Because I'm still fighting.  First one to stop, loses.

But there are still laws that govern both. The city exists regardless of what state it's in.  It could be reduced to sand and glass by a nuclear weapon, but the site is still there.    The same can be applied to different points in time, whether childhood, yesterday, today, or tomorrow.   They may not be able to ever come back but they aren't dead.  To be alive, something needs to have a heartbeat, a central nervous system, a consciousness.  No point in time ever had those, so they can't be called alive or dead.  They simply exist.  And childhood doesn't relate solely to one person.  I assume people were a part of your life when you were a child.  So they experienced and were a part of your childhood as well. 

Well, they would age slower.  They wouldn't even need to move between time zones.  If we could make a car go fast enough, yet stay within one time zone, the same thing would happen.  The clock would record less time and the person would be younger than they normally would have been. 

I wasn't talking about spending sprees.  I was talking about business and the economy.  Most people don't give handouts.  But when they do it is for the reasons you said.  I'm not saying all those big companies reaping billions in profit is a good thing.  Or a bad thing for that matter.  It's called a free market economy.  Some people make it.  Most don't.  The only alternative is communism, which would work in an ideal world, tends to fail in practice.  For those people who can't fish, in the olden days they died.  Life's unfair.  Not everyone makes it. 

Then you're talking about an equation like X + 2 = Y.  If 5 is plugged in, it's known to be right.  And will never be wrong. 

They must be.  I bet there's subliminal messaging in all their British comedies and other crap they put on.  Glad I don't watch it.  Yeah, yeah.  The Bible says a lot of things, and not too clearly.  Minor stuff isn't important.  But people who say that going on a killing spree or bombing a building is what God or **werd** want.  Those are ones I meant.

It didn't seem to make a difference for the Shinigami Realm.  That place continued down it's path of slow death.  I don't think there would be a reason for humans to use a Death Note.  Ryuk even said that Shinigami gain life whereas humans gain nothing.  It's just more of an accident if it does happen.  Unless of course, some Shinigami purposely does it for a few laughs.  I'm sure all the people who died would appreciate that they died just for some creature's amusement. 

[Bad_Witch]

NO!!!! Then I'll win.

The city doesn't require people to exist. To be built, yes, but after that it will continue even if everyone left. Childhood only exists as long as you in it. All points in time have those things, by the people who live in that time. In fact, that time only exists because of those people and once they longer live there time goes away. Plus, I still believe time is an illusion. Yes it may exist but how we view it can be completely different from how it is.

That adds a new level to space travel...if we ever figure out how to go warp speed.

If you want to talk economy...you can't argue that those rich bastards could do more for the ecomony by spending the money on new business and jobs instead of toys. After all, creating a new business would mean a new income source and more jobs means people have money to buy the crap they make. The funny thing about the economy is that if some people horde the money...there's less for others to spend. Why is everythin in absolutes? I hate absolutes.

The point is if 5 is pulled in, but it should have been 6, then we don't know what we thought we did. Yes, we can amend it, but it doesn't change that fact.

Minor stuff is important. It's often the minor stuff that leads to the major. I get what your saying.

We don't really know what difference it may have made or to what degree. By the ending we don't see anything of the Realm anymore...but apparently apples are like money. Ryuk isn't a very realiable source. He didn't know everything about the notebook. Just becuase it didn't add to the life of the human doesn't mean it didn't benefit said human in some way. Most people die for others amusement...especially when murdered. I fail to see the difference.

[Meilag32]

YES!!!  The tide has already turned.

Yeah, that's my point concerning the city.  Childhood still exists.  It just exists as a part of the past instead as a part of the present.  People are not points in time.  People are people.  I wasn't talking about the people that experienced the past.  I'm talking about the past itself.  And the people being dead doesn't mean the past went away.  Do you have pictures of some ancestors?  They're all dead.  But the pictures are evidence their past happened. 

It would.  Though wormholes are still the best bet.

They could do more for the economy, but it could hurt them in the process.  Why would they risk it?  Especially in this economic climate.  It would take much more for them to make it successful.  I tend to hoard my money.  Most of the time. 

But the math works with 5 and doesn't with 6. 

Catholicism, Lutherans, Protestants, etc.  How do those minor things matter?

You're right about that.  Ryuk brings apples back and it's like heroin to the others too.  But I meant more than that.  I meant concerning the whole existence and direction the Realm was taking.  It would benefit humans who plan around it's use.  But they don't gain life or anything.  The best they get are the Shinigami Eyes.  Usually murder has a purpose.  Something is accomplished by it: an enemy eliminated or a secret kept safe.  I hate people who kill for no other reason than for amusement or just to kill for the Hell of it. 

[Bad_Witch]

NO!!! and no it hasn't.

But, childhood doesn't exist once you age out of it. There is evidence of it but that doesn't mean it exists. There's evidence of dinos...they don't exist anymore. The past is only experienced by those that lived through it. The present is the only time anyone is alive..so the past is dead since it was alive.

Unless wormholes somehow make you younger. You could cease to exist before the end of the journey.

So, its fear then. When they started their fortunes...did it makes sense to do so simply because they had nothing to lose? There's a certain level of risk in everything and its fear of this economic climate that keeps it in stasis. If no one change anything then nothing will change.

Then you need a different equation...that on isn't working.

That isn't what I meant. It the minor things that lead to major. It is funny how people to tend to notice the minor things that don't really matter and ignore the ones that do.

Well, you could argue that it did change the direction of the Realm. Since more Shinigami did what Ryuk did, it wasn't such a desolate place. After all, there was new things to talk about.

I find those to be the most fasinating. Killing for revenge or to protect something is so mundane. Now to experiement, to see how long and how much a person can take before dying is fun.

[Meilag32]

YES!!!!  It might have. 

Not existing anymore doesn't always mean death.  People are alive.  Time periods aren't.  Your childhood wasn't alive just because you were.  A childhood is more than just the person who's childhood is in question.  It's the other people in it, the places, the smells, the activities done.  It's all of that rolled into one. 

Wormholes would get you to places faster by opening up a "back door" so you wouldn't have to travel the millions and billions of miles.  It wouldn't technically you younger in and of itself.  Though you would arrive sooner so you'd be younger than if you took the long way.

Yeah, it would have made more sense when they had nothing to lose.  Now they have everything to lose.  So they won't risk it.  And you're right, that is one the reasons why the global economy is still getting worse. 

It's working because it's right.  If you want to purposely make it something else, then yeah you might need a different one.

I still don't understand.  I don't follow religion so I don't know of the minor issues. I only hear about the major ones. 

You could make an argument that it changed how the Shinigami lived.  It doesn't mean that the Realm itself was changed. 

Killing is never mundane.  And you're starting to sound like the people from those torture films.  Enjoying ripping people's eyes out and chopping off limbs...  And people call me sick and evil.

[Bad_Witch]

NO!!! Might doesn't mean it has or even if it will.

The other people may impact the childhood, but they don't make it. It's how you viewed the world that made those experiences what they were. People may become more jaded or even light-hearted as they age, but they lose the innocence and whatnot of childhood. It's that part that dies and that is what childhood is.

It might make you younger though. Who knows haw traveling in such a way will affect us. As you said, time slows down here on Earth with those clocks...and they are moving much slower than a wormhole would travel. Maybe once you reach a certain point, instead of time merely slowing it actually reverses.

I think that depends more on the person's outlook. I do believe that many take the "nothing to lose' mentality, but there are those that look more at what is to gain. And even those that took that latter approach, now everything everything, have become afraid to lose it.

New information may cause the need for a new equation.

It's more or less the little things that people let go that allow the major things to happen. If you stop evil in it infancy...then it can't grow. We, as humans, classify things in levels of evil and are more likely to allow something small to pass by without a thought....then wonder where it all went wrong.

The Realm would have changed some. It would have had too. Perhaps it was desolate since they didn't do anything any more..and now they have a reason to do something. Breathing life into it so to speak.

The act might not be, but the reasons behind it usually are. I enjoy torture films. It's much more interesting when it happens simply because the person crossed paths with the murderer than she cheated on me, revenge, etc. It isn't the act so much as the motivation.

[Meilag32]

Yes.  Actually "might" kind of means the possibility is there.

You're basing childhood on what solely is experienced by a person.  I'm basing childhood as a period of time. 

Wormholes aren't supposed to travel at any speed.  We think they just open up a portal that you almost instantly warp through.  Though this is all speculation, as we're not even sure if they exist yet. 

But in order to take the "nothing to lose" mentality, you actually need to have nothing to lose.  The people who have billions could afford to risk a little.  I think it's less fear, than it is greed. 

But if the original equation is right, then that can't be possible.  That's like saying 2+2=4, and then someone coming along and saying 2+2=5.  Both can't be right.  But that doesn't mean that new equations couldn't be thought of for other problems.  For these two basic equations you would undoubtedly say that 1+3 would also equal 4.   But that doesn't work when you're dealing with massive equations that have upwards of hundreds of variables.  Perhaps you really could come up with a different way of finding the same solution, but that wouldn't negate the already existing one that works.  You could never throw out the old one like you're saying. 

You can't really stop that stuff from happening.  Maybe those people should think less of what constitutes "evil". 

But what were they really doing?  They were just eating apples like crazy.  How was that changing the make-up and purpose of the Realm?  How is the Realm going to come back to life because of that?

But they are motivated either by enjoyment or some sexual thrill they get off of it.  How is that more interesting to you? 

[Bad_Witch]

No. Just because it might be possible doesn't mean it is.

But childhood really isn't a time period. Time periods are based by decades, centuries, and even what we classify as periods of time like the Middle Ages. They are mostly defined by what was happening in the world at that point and how people lived...like the fads of the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. Childhood isn't defined by set points in time, as each childhood is defined by when the person was born. Those who experienced childhood in the 60s did not have the same experiences of those of the 90s. Even in the same decade...childhood would be experienced different...thos that grew up in the early 60s instead of the last 60s. Childhood is more a period of one's life instead of a period of time and is unique to each person.

Well, we dont' know mauch about them, and what we theorize is just that...theories. So, my idea could be proven correct.

Not necessarily. Maybe there was something to lose, but compared to what culd be gained it became insignifact. People put their entire life savings into projects hoping they pay off. It is greed...the fear of losing their money.

It isn't so much that the equation was wrong as it is we were using the worng equation the whole time. And yes, it could be variables that prove we were using the wrong equation. All I'm saying is the equation works because we have faulty knowledge.

Or maybe they should think more? After all, why can't those things be stopped? If everyone just stopped allowing those things to happen...then it couldn't lead to anything bigger.

Well, if you take the bonus chapter into consideration...apparently other Shinigami take notebooks into the human world. They don't just eat the apples but use them as we do money. as far as coming back to life...I can't say. We have no idea how much life was in that realm to begin with.

Because it is. It breaks away from the normal. On any given day, most murders would be committed because of jealousy, greed, revenge, etc. Motives that humans can understand...even if they dont' agree with it. Finding a person that truly enjoys murder for the simple act of it is rare.

[Meilag32]

Yes, on both accounts.  It being possible means it might be possible.  Doesn't mean it is for certain, but there's a chance. 

Yes, it is.  It's a period of years.  So it's a time period. When that period of time took place doesn't matter. 

Yes, your theory could be correct.  But time can't really go in reverse and you definitely couldn't reverse the aging process. 

"Could be gained".  That's the key qualifier.  Like I said, those people don't risk it because of their greed.  They want to hold on to their money. 

But how can we have faulty knowledge if the equations work?  If the equation didn't work, then it would mean something was wrong.  But if the equation works out, and we can test it in real life and it works, you can't really call it wrong.  Or even possibly wrong. 

Because that would mean changing the way people think.  Changing their human nature.  Which you say is impossible.  You could force them all to follow one religion, but in their hearts and minds they'd still have their own thoughts on the subject.

I don't care about the living beings in the Realm.  I was talking about the Realm itself.  There had to have been a reason for it's existence; a reason why it was connected in various ways to the Human World, and a reason why the Realm appears to slowly dying. 

So you believe that enjoyment is reason and justification enough?  Do you enjoy the act of murder and torture?  I'm not saying I don't enjoy it (depending on the situation), but I wouldn't do it for simple enjoyment.

[Bad_Witch]

No! No it doesn't!

I need to reread this thread to remember what we were discussing, and how exactly the tree argument ended up in the Ryuk fanclub

[Meilag32]

YES IT DOES!!!!!!!

I remember this one.  We ended up discussing time travel and quantum mechanics.  All from starting out at Ryuk. 

[Bad_Witch]

NO! NO IT DOESN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, yes. It's coming back to me now. Wierd how those things happen.

As a point of interest, since we are in the Ryuk fanclub and all, given my views...would you say I most closely resemble Ryuk?

[Meilag32]

Yes...

I didn't think it weird.  A lot of our discussions simply used Death Note as a starting point then branched out into other areas.

Wait, I was in this fanclub?  I thought I first came here to belittle others. 

Anyways, yeah, you kind of do.  You have said that you'd use the Death Note purely to satisfy your curiosity and boredom, rather than use it achieve some great aim (like Light and me).  And Ryuk did drop a Death Note into the human world just to see what would happen and to cure his boredom.  You've always said you'd never take sides between Lupin and I.  And Ryuk never took a side, either.  There's definitely some strong parallels there.  And of course the physical similarities are stunning.  Ha ha!