02-08-201112:05 PM - last edited on 02-08-201112:25 PM
Actually, I have to disagree with you there. Geass is a series that from the get-go played fast and loose with things like plausibility and suspension of disbelief. Jeremiah fit in perfectly with that universe. On the other hand, Archer is the exact opposite. FMA always had an almost rigid adherence to real-world sciences and theories...except for this one character. Archer is something that never belonged in the FMA universe. He comes absolutely out of nowhere with no explanation and was one of the stupidest, most random wastes of a character I've ever seen. And with FMA, there was no excuse for it. They went out of their way to show how things like alchemy and the Homunculi and even automail worked to some degree; it was easy to accept the more unrealistic elements of the series. Archer, however, was none of that. He makes no sense at all.
We are shown Archer after the Stone is created. He is clearly missing a good chunk of his brain, and his future automail heavily implies that he lost a good deal of his body. That alone should probably have killed him well before they were able to get him bandaged up and on the train; if there'd been an alchemist using a stone to seal his wounds to stop the bleeding and the most pressing threat, then that still wouldn't explain all the blood on his bandages.
Next, let's talk about just the basic ideas of how he even got that automail. Now, remember that only a few weeks at most pass between his huge, should-have-been-fatal injury and when he shows up as Terminarcher. Ed required nearly a year before he was ready to travel with his new arm and leg, and even that was considered extremely fast. Archer had half his body replaced and was back in full swing in a fraction of the time. Granted, Ed was a 10-year-old boy, but it still should have taken him way, way longer to heal enough to move around. That soon after, there's no way he'd be able to move around or fight. And that's not even taking into account the fact that each individual piece of automail would have to be specifically created and tailored perfectly to fit his body; it's not like they just stuck some spare parts on there and called it a day.
Now let's take a look at the automail itself. First, that arm and leg. Earlier in the series, Winry explains that by making his automail lighter, Ed would be able to move faster at the expense of it being more fragile. While Archer's stuff is definitely strong, as he walks away with minimal damage after crashing his car, it looks like it weighs at least twice as much as the rest of his body. There is no way he would be able to move as fast as he does for the simple fact that his metal parts would weigh him down so much.
His face makes no sense. Take a look at that picture of him pre-automail and injured. A decent amount of his head is still there on that side, meaning they had to cut off part of it to install the automail. You can see in these twoshots that despite being metal, it is able to stretch perfectly like skin to match his human side. Metal does not work that way. They replaced his eye with some light which, unless it fires lasers, is a completely superfluous detail that someone added for nothing more than because it looked good. As far as I know they don't have batteries or self-sustaining electronics in this universe, so I'm at a loss as to why it lights up. It's explained that automail can move by being connected to nerves, Another one of these additions is the fact that they bothered to recreate his hair on the metal side of his head, right down to his preferred style and color. It even gets tossled, just like real hair. And as for the next question, "Wait, couldn't that just be his real hair?" That would mean someone had to painstakingly cut around his hairline and then carefully reattach it to the metal once it was installed.
Now my favorite part, that mouth gun and all the questions that brings up. In order for that to work, they would have had to remove at least a few organs to make room for all the parts. How does he eat? How is he supposed to refill his ammo? Hell, how does he even breathe when he only has one working nostril, a constantly full mouth, and presumably a large metal tube down his throat? Let's give the creators the benefit of the doubt and say that Archer was administered nutrients through IV and they didn't include a way to refill because they only intended him to live for a short time with his robo-Frankenstein body. He would have been extremely weak from feeding intravenously, and that just further points out how absurd it was that they gave him hair and a new eye.
And a few other things that still make no sense. How can he even speak? Did they develop their country's first computer just to shove it in a war machine so he can talk? How does it know what he wants to say, does it read his thoughts? And one thing that has always irked me, WHY DOESN'T ANYONE THINK TO ATTACK HIS HUMAN HALF? He fights off tons of people, most of them trained soldiers, and not one of them has the idea to aim for the fleshy, vulnerable part that makes up the entire right side of his body until Riza takes him out in the last 10 minutes. I get that they meant for him to survive until then, but in-universe, there's absolutely no reason for everyone he fights not to realize the logical tactic of going for his obvious weak point. Also, I'd like to point out that his positively random moment where he tells Izumi he'll spare her if she agrees to become a state alchemist. This is never hinted at before that moment or brought up after, it's just something they wrote for him to say to sound cool.
In short, Archer was a character based entirely on style over substance. Sure, he looked pretty cool, but there was nothing about him that made any scrap of sense once you stopped to think about it for even half a minute. It's like the creators decided to do something crazy with him, but then had no idea how to work with him once they did.
I don't know what's real from the noise, the noise. I can't hear a thing for the noise, the noise. I wouldn't do anything, the thunder that throws me away. I wouldn't do anything, there's something that keeps me away. I wouldn't do anything, something that begs me to stay. I wouldn't do anything, something that throws me away.
02-08-201101:13 PM - last edited on 02-08-201101:27 PM
I don't think it's fair to say that they altogether reduced the comedy in the manga that much. They took out a few jokes, but they also played a few jokes a little bit harder than the manga did (for instance, Havoc's "I LOVE BIG BOOBS!" moment wasn't quite as dramatic). I also think that the humor generally works better in manga form than in anime. But it's balanced out by the anime making epic moments even more epic, like Ed punching open the gate at the end of ep 26.
Agree with your point, though, about concentrating on the things you like. Ben, what about the stuff that you enjoy in this series? It seemed to me like you were having a pretty damned good time of it so far.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth." -Alphonse Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist (1st series)
I don't have to be a "manga reader" to complain about things like this. They took out some comedy? Great. They took out whole chapters and condensed? Terrible. I want my train episode, and I want it in Brotherhood, I want the full Ishval War story, I want the Mine episode, I want the guy back watching the boys train on the island... everything should be there. It isn't, and this Brotherhood is an imperfect show. It could have been up there with Bebop, Trigun, Monster, Paranoia Agent... easily. These mistakes keep it out of the Masterpiece Tier and just in the "Good to Great" tier.
I don't have the show, but I am not in a good mood, and this stuff about the show is getting to me, as are a lot of things. I'm just not in a good place right now. Sorry.
Still, if you didn't know about those changes, would that impact your enjoyment of the show?
Also, I can assure you that the comedy certainly lessens in the second half (only a couple of such moments in the last 15 episodes or so) and we're done with any condensing. If anything, I think they added a few scenes.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth." -Alphonse Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist (1st series)
It matters not. I would find out. I always do. I am a perfectionist and completionist, obsessive, like that. ;P
Thank Altana for that! That's great news. Thanks for informing me of it, Hawfklame.
It is a gradual thing, though, so don't expect it to just drop out completely. Frankly, I think that the comedy works better in the manga where these moments don't seem so abrupt, so it's unfair to blame the mangaka for this when you haven't even read the manga yourself.
...Okay, then let's say these scenes never even existed in the manga. Would you enjoy the show more?
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth." -Alphonse Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist (1st series)
It matters not. I would find out. I always do. I am a perfectionist and completionist, obsessive, like that. ;P
Thank Altana for that! That's great news. Thanks for informing me of it, Hawfklame.
It is a gradual thing, though, so don't expect it to just drop out completely. Frankly, I think that the comedy works better in the manga where these moments don't seem so abrupt, so it's unfair to blame the mangaka for this when you haven't even read the manga yourself.
...Okay, then let's say these scenes never even existed in the manga. Would you enjoy the show more?
I have a hard time believing they'd work in that way either. Usually things are even more abrupt in Manga because it's... you know, story-telling through sequential art? There's no movement, obviously?
Maybe, although I will admit I am laughing at some of the comedic scenes. Not all... or even most of them have been badly-timed and poorly executed, but the ones that have stick out like a sore thumb. For instance, tonight, they seemed to work, for the most part.
I am quite annoyed though they think it's funny to turn Al into a giant gray dildo, and Ed turns into... a beeble person? What were those little toys called? Fisher-Price's Little People, I think? That's what it reminds me of.
The first series didn't have some of these deformations, and as a result you could take it a lot more seriously. If one didn't know any better, you'd never even think it was Japanese. You have characters in a very European-inspired setting, and great diversity in the cast. And then the fact that she invented an ethnicity in the Ishavalans, is just so cool. All of these things made the series very relatable to any audience.
Think of when you watch Monster, Cowboy Bebop, The Big O, maybe even Trigun to a certain extent. You don't watch it and think "oh yeah, this is Anime"... In fact, a long time ago, I had even believed Cowboy Bebop might have been an American show. Ahh, the days of blissful ignorance of being a new Anime fan. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with shows being really overly "Japanesey", as that is where they were made, but it's not something I expect from a franchise like Fullmetal Alchemist, which has (or did have) a more universal appeal.
But then you have Brotherhood, and you want to take it so seriously because it deals with all these awesome and thought-provoking themes... stuff that can say a lot, and it also doesn't talk down to the audience or throw messages in your face. It's subtle, but not difficult to follow if you're paying attention. That's a very tough balancing act that is difficult to pull off. You have all this...
And then Al turns into a giant gray dildo.
That kind of thing just takes me out of it. It's like... really... REALLY? That just happened?
Don't get me wrong, it's not making me hate the show, but it can be distracting. Sometimes when it flows well with the scene and makes sense for it to happen, it can be funny and I won't think anything of it. But, like I said.. the times it doesn't work... blech.
Personally, I enjoy the giant gray dildo and think it's used to good effect in most cases.
I don't know what's real from the noise, the noise. I can't hear a thing for the noise, the noise. I wouldn't do anything, the thunder that throws me away. I wouldn't do anything, there's something that keeps me away. I wouldn't do anything, something that begs me to stay. I wouldn't do anything, something that throws me away.
In some cases, but not all. Like I said, the humor works most of the times, but the times when it doesn't, it just fails horribly and kills the scene. It doesn't always mesh well with the characters involved, what's going on at that time, the setting, etc.
It matters not. I would find out. I always do. I am a perfectionist and completionist, obsessive, like that. ;P
Thank Altana for that! That's great news. Thanks for informing me of it, Hawfklame.
It is a gradual thing, though, so don't expect it to just drop out completely. Frankly, I think that the comedy works better in the manga where these moments don't seem so abrupt, so it's unfair to blame the mangaka for this when you haven't even read the manga yourself.
...Okay, then let's say these scenes never even existed in the manga. Would you enjoy the show more?
I have a hard time believing they'd work in that way either. Usually things are even more abrupt in Manga because it's... you know, story-telling through sequential art? There's no movement, obviously?
Except that that's -exactly- why it would work better in the manga. In anime, where things should flow smoothly from one scene to the next, an abrupt change is going to be that much more significant and noticeable than in manga, where the medium already is made of isolated sequential images to begin with.
Also, there are other factors: in manga, you can shift the size and shape of panels to play up or play down certain moments- big, dramatic reveals are done in large panels, while comedy moments can play out in smaller ones. In anime, you can use things like voice acting, music, and sound effects to build up or play down the comedy- manga obviously doesn't have that.
The best example I can think of for this is Havoc's "I love big boobs" moment in episode 19. In the manga, the moment plays out in a single, average sized panel- but his face only takes up half the panel, and it plays very quickly. He still has the dramatic expression on his face and some sparkles in the background, but that's it- it plays so quickly that it's more easily shrugged off. It's just one of several panels on the same page and doesn't play off as particularly important.
But in the anime, of course, you have the camera panning up Havoc's body for a couple of seconds, with the sparkly background (complete with sound effects) and dramatic music, the light shining from above, and Mike Macfarland's cheesy, over the top delivery of the line. For a few seconds, that's all we see and hear, so it just dominates the whole scene for that time. And everything in that scene that is unique to anime really tries to stress the comedy of the moment, so a moment that you can just shrug off really just becomes like a sledgehammer.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth." -Alphonse Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist (1st series)
It matters not. I would find out. I always do. I am a perfectionist and completionist, obsessive, like that. ;P
Thank Altana for that! That's great news. Thanks for informing me of it, Hawfklame.
It is a gradual thing, though, so don't expect it to just drop out completely. Frankly, I think that the comedy works better in the manga where these moments don't seem so abrupt, so it's unfair to blame the mangaka for this when you haven't even read the manga yourself.
...Okay, then let's say these scenes never even existed in the manga. Would you enjoy the show more?
I have a hard time believing they'd work in that way either. Usually things are even more abrupt in Manga because it's... you know, story-telling through sequential art? There's no movement, obviously?
Except that that's -exactly- why it would work better in the manga. In anime, where things should flow smoothly from one scene to the next, an abrupt change is going to be that much more significant and noticeable than in manga, where the medium already is made of isolated sequential images to begin with.
Also, there are other factors: in manga, you can shift the size and shape of panels to play up or play down certain moments- big, dramatic reveals are done in large panels, while comedy moments can play out in smaller ones. In anime, you can use things like voice acting, music, and sound effects to build up or play down the comedy- manga obviously doesn't have that.
The best example I can think of for this is Havoc's "I love big boobs" moment in episode 19. In the manga, the moment plays out in a single, average sized panel- but his face only takes up half the panel, and it plays very quickly. He still has the dramatic expression on his face and some sparkles in the background, but that's it- it plays so quickly that it's more easily shrugged off. It's just one of several panels on the same page and doesn't play off as particularly important.
But in the anime, of course, you have the camera panning up Havoc's body for a couple of seconds, with the sparkly background (complete with sound effects) and dramatic music, the light shining from above, and Mike Macfarland's cheesy, over the top delivery of the line. For a few seconds, that's all we see and hear, so it just dominates the whole scene for that time. And everything in that scene that is unique to anime really tries to stress the comedy of the moment, so a moment that you can just shrug off really just becomes like a sledgehammer.
Fair enough.
The thing is though, if that comedic scene worked in Manga, these things would just make it even better in Anime. I can think of comedic scenes improved by this. But if it didn't work, it's just going to be all the more obvious. I suppose it's really a thing that differs from person to person, and which bits you think are hilarious or make you just want to cringe. Again, it doesn't make me not want to watch the show, but it does detract from certain scenes.
Yeah though, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I just don't think it is that much of a 'defense'. A comedic bit that worked in the manga will only be enhanced, and one that doesn't will only be inflated in how much it failed.
The scene with Ed freaking out when he's getting his arm fixed by Winrey would almost be too over-the-top, but you realize why he's freaking, that it is relatable and it's hilarious. You can also imagine that him bouncing around the room might also be in his mind, since no one else really reacts to it.
I have to disagree; there are certain scenes where playing a scene big and loud would ruin it whereas if you played the comedy "softer" the scene would only be enhanced. There are scenes like the above Havoc moment where you might want to diffuse a LITTLE bit of tension, but not all of it.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth." -Alphonse Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist (1st series)
I never said that it had to be "played big and loud", I just said that givig it the animated treatment is likely only to improve it. That is, handled properly. It would take some tact, and knowing the right way to play certain scenes.
And yes, it's definitely good to diffuse some tension, but not all of it, as you mentioned. Still, I feel there are scenes where we could have done completely without it, for instance, when we meet Father and Ed has a cartoonish freak out.
I really want to finish watching it before I watch the other version, it just seems fitting in my mind.
Not trying to promote or anything but Walmart has had part 4 on dvd for long time. I've already seen up to 52 and I'm waiting patiently with Adult Swim to catch up.
Walmart sells parts 1/2 for $25 and parts 3/4 for $25. Not to unfair for how many episodes you get.
Can you consider the Brotherhood anime as the 'true story' of Fullmetal Alchemist, since it follows the story of the original manga to end? I mean, the original anime is 'canon' in it's own right, but I never considered it the 'true story/ending' because it wasn't Arakawa's intended story. Or should I consider both versions of fma (manga and first anime) as equally canon/official'?
Personally, I consider them as two separate stories that just happen to share some of the same elements.
I don't know what's real from the noise, the noise. I can't hear a thing for the noise, the noise. I wouldn't do anything, the thunder that throws me away. I wouldn't do anything, there's something that keeps me away. I wouldn't do anything, something that begs me to stay. I wouldn't do anything, something that throws me away.
I think everybody is over thinking the title Brotherhood was added to diferenciate from the first version, plus they are all in a way related, alchemists, both good and bad guys all sides of the dicotamey of humany related awe **tut-tut** now im thinking to much into it.
It really doesn't matter which one you watch first, Brotherhood is in my own opinion better. It follows the manga more closely, and it's a little darker, Part 1 is all in the original Fullmetal Alchemist, but it is different and goes faster. From part 2 on it's all different than the original series with new characters. Both are worth a watch.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with shows being really overly "Japanesey", as that is where they were made, but it's not something I expect from a franchise like Fullmetal Alchemist, which has (or did have) a more universal appeal.
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