General Action Discussion

[R.I.P.vandion]

I'm guessing that the prime demographic for [AS] is males 18 to 30.  From the ratings numbers I would think the selection for a good Action series is probably pretty tough, particularly since [CN/AS] needs to see a positive return on the investment.

To start, I'll say that I don't care for Lupin III or Case Closed.  I think I've given them both plenty of opportunity to grow on me.  I'm pretty sure that I've seen every Lupin episode that [AS] has played, and the same goes for Case Closed with the exception of a couple.  The shows, while classified as "Action", don't really fit into the classical model of an Action show.  I would classify Trigun or Cowboy Bebop as examples of the "classical model."  They certainly don't fit into a "Comedy" category.  I suppose my idea of these categories is fairly rigid and could perhaps be considered traditional...maybe I'm just gettind old

Taking Lupin, Case Closed, Bebop and Trigun and comparing their ratings, how do they stack up?  I know there are some really solid Lupin and Case Closed fans, and there are some that really despise these shows.  Running through the boards, I haven't really seen many (if any) messages or threads discussing a dislike of Trigun or Bebop, but I haven't had any difficulty finding some for Lupin or Case Closed.  So I've been wondering, does that mean that those who dislike these two are just more passionate than those who dislike other Action shows, or are these shows simply less popular?

Has [CN/AS] seen a positive return on the investment in these shows?  I'm guessing that advertising and merchandising are the prime sources of income for [AS].  I haven't seen any merchandise for these two shows...did I just not look hard enough?  Once the investment in a series is made, [AS] obviously cannot just drop the show because it's not showing a great return...but is there a criteria that determines when it's time to simply cut the losses on a series?

From a demographic perspective, I ask myself what I dislike about these shows (being that I'm in the male 18-30 category).  I suppose that in the "classical model" of Action shows, there is typically a substantial linear storyline...and often it is quite involved.  Neither Lupin nor Case Closed have any substantial linear storyline...in fact, I don't think that I've identified any linear storyline for Lupin at all.  Also in the "classical model" the linear story is usually complex enough that you want (read 'need') to see the next episode to see how it plays out...and the theme of the linear storyline is typically written for adult consumption.  Bearing in mind that I can't really find a linear storyline in Lupin, I would have to say that the linear storyline of Case Closed is only barely present in most episodes...with the exception of the first in the series.  The first episode only served to provide an excuse to make the main character small...and since then the 'criminal organization' that was responsible has all but disappeared.  As far as adult oriented themes...I can't really say that either of them really meet that criteria.  Lupin's theme is fairly simple, and is innocuous and 'fun' enough to appeal to children.  Ignoring the crude dialog and...well...ignoring Fujiko...there isn't anything about the show that would separate it from a children's show.  Case Closed also has a very simple theme, though it often depicts graphic murders.  The gore is weaved very tightly into the stories, and it would be pretty difficult to separate for the consumption of children...also, the intricacies of the murders would probably be a bit too much for a child to understand.  However, the premise of the stories is the same...and the murders themselves are often forced.  Off topic for a sec, how many gruesome murders does an 8 year old have to witness before someone thinks it might be bad for his mental development?!

In any case, that's my rambling analysis of these two shows and my questions regarding their appeal.  I've tried to keep it mostly objective, but that's hard to do when you you like or dislike something.  I welcome any discussion (or answers to my questions), though please avoid flaming as my personal dislike for these shows really doesn't matter in the context of analysing the merits and weaknesses of these two shows.

Van

[R.I.P.gameboyadam1]

well considering that they really aren't considered action(well sometimes case closed can be if you see thr right episode) may be the prime reason that they are both on at the last slots of AS. for me i like both shows (lupin more) but sometimes you've got to put into consideration the people can be really ignorant. they won't like the show just because the animation is bad. the show was made in the 70's so... yeah, but i bet you've got you're own reasons that you dont like them. But back  on topic yes people like CB and Trigun, but they've got to get it through their heads that both of them have been ran like 5 times in a row... maybe even more. the people at adult swim proably decided that they needed to change them cause they were getting tired of airing them over and over again. but i think i should just stop talking, im gonna make someone mad somehow. i know i am.

[R.I.P.vandion]

Good observation...I hope that the animation style doesn't really kill a show for people, but then I can say that the Kikaider animation kinda turned me off...but I loved Kikaider.

To your point, you can't run the good ones all the time...especially ones like Bebop that only have 24 (or was it 26) episodes...  I know there are fans of Lupin and Case Closed...which is good, because if they were really bad [AS] wouldn't have acquired them.  The time slots work though...for me at least...I'll have [AS] on at least until Case Closed...and sometimes I watch all the way through to the second Futurama showing.

I'll say one thing for Lupin though...Fujiko

Van

[R.I.P.gameboyadam1]

well for some strange reason kikaider really hit my head the wrong way... i just could not get into it, but c'mon fujiko is freaking annoying. i dont care if she is eye candy for some people. i just cant stand her, she is the only thing that could bring the show down in my eye's.

[R.I.P.overdose_delusion]

Well, Case Closed is actually a children's show in Japan, but that doesn't mean that people of all ages can't enjoy it.  I know what you mean by saying that it doesn't fit into Action territory, but I think that in terms of describing the contents of the show it's based on a person's perception of what "action" is.  Now I won't deny that Trigun and Bebop are great shows and are good examples of what action shows are, but it's a bit unfair to expect [as]'s Action lineup to have the same contents as those two.  There's all different kinds of anime, and that's personally why I think that it should have been called anime Saturdays rather than action--but that's what happens when you have shows like Bebop and Trigun (and Inuyasha to a certain extent) as the pioneer for your anime lineup.

While I'm a pretty big fan of Lupin the III and I'm not bothered by how its storyline doesn't follow a certain pattern, that's one of the things I don't like about Case Closed.  As weird as that sounds.  The thing about Lupin is that there isn't any definitive plot--no great villan to overcome and defeat (since the main characters are pretty much the villans)--and so it's essentially just Lupin and his friends having fun pulling off heists all around the world.  It's basically like a normal show in reverse--instead of it being a show from Pops' point of view about how he has to track down the thieves, it's about the thieves as Pops humorously tries to outwit them.  The thing with Case Closed is that there is a villan out there who has wronged the main character, there's an "evil" to defeat, but we haven't seen anything about them since the first episode.  It's difficult to establish a connection or an interest in the plot, IMO, when the bad guy hasn't even made the effort to do anything about the situation.  It would have been better if it had started off with Conan being a child and then later realising that he was turned into one at some point--or at least if he was just a child genius and that was that.  Solving murders and all that fun stuff.  I think it's sort of a bad idea to start off with someone/thing to classify as the antagonist and then make them disappear completely until they decide to stop having Conan solve cases that the inept Roger Moore can't fathom.

But that's my opinion and sorry if I've completely missed your point exactly.

[R.I.P.insistenttrip]

I'm all about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, dazzle me with the obvious observation type of crime solving, but have to agree that Case Closed, while a good acqusition for [as], is a bit juvenile for the action block.  I can tune into USA (can i type that?) and watch Monk solve a case mush as I can this tyke who once was a soccer star striving to be Sherlock Holmes.  

My thoughts?  humble though they are...avoid the typical Encyclopedia Brown-esque deduction of guilt type program and put something in the slot that will grab the audience by the cajones and make them say, "**bleep**, I'm watchin' this tomorrow."    

[R.I.P.overdose_delusion]

Haha, agreed.  Although I'm not saying the show is teh s uck, I'm saying that it's a bit lacking in the riveting department.  I can miss two weeks worth of episodes and not worry about a huge part of the plot revealed in my absence.  If a show doesn't grab my attention and hold it there normally I tend to glance at something else.  And that's not a bad thing, really, it's more based on my personal thoughts than it is what's shown in the show.  (I know that a lot of people thought Witch Hunter Robin was boring, but to me that's one of the best shows [as] has aired).  But really there's only so many times I can watch a kid solve a murder before I want to sic Columbo on his arse.

[R.I.P.Lupin_da_3rd]

Lupin's unliniar story line and it's comedy aspect allows viewers to watch any random episode and enjoy without the need to explain a plot or affections/hatred between characters

[candeldandel]

Aww, you're too rigid. But, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm glad that you have reasons for your opinions.

Did you just come here to poke an angry beast with a stick? I.E. me?? Because if you did... It's not working!! Nya nya nya!! ;D And if you didn't... Then okay. I'm just covering my bases.

Lupin III is the shizNITE!! To me, anyway. WOwOO!!

[AL429]

Well, I see your point but there is only one thing I have to say, "that's Television for you".  Ever wonder if ever Television Programming ever totally agreed with you?  No wonder remotes wear out so quickly these days.  I can understand that you are more into the involved story line Anime but like I've always say, "not all Anime is for everyone".  Just because I like some thing don't mean you may like it, but hey, there's tons of anime out there and I'm sure there's one that we might both agree on.  Anyhow, it's summer and it's slow so even though that I am actually watching Case Closed and Lupin the III right now, I may stop watching weeknights once the "re-runs" starts.  There's one thing I can't personally stand is excessive "re-runs" no matter how bad or good the show is.  That's why I hardly watch TV anymore and stuck to being on the computer or renting or buying DVDs since I stop relaying on Television to broadcast what I want to watch.  I'm a big time Movie Fan and I only have basic cable and I have to tell you that there's nothing but "re-runs" and the only quality anime I get is on CN's Adult Swim.  I've only watch CC and Lupin because there's really is nothing on during that time, nothing that's interesting to me anyhow.  To sum it up, re-runs are BAD and unless Adult Swim airs some thing new, I'm going to sleep or be doing some thing else.

..............off the ranting soap box I go..........................

[R.I.P.vandion]

Not at all, my point was really to see where others stand.  I'm also really interested to know if those shows are showing a good return for [AS].

I enjoy having an intelligent (or some semblance of intelligent) conversation about these things...  If I just wanted to stir up a pot of trouble, I'd have gone and heckled some of the really hardcore Inuyasha fans

If you look at the top television shows on any given week night, you'll see that one network is dominating with shows like "CSI" and "Cold Case Files".  Case Closed kinda feels like a kids' version of that sort of show.  Though, the depiction of the murders in Case Closed are pretty graphic...a bit much for children?

Vandion

[R.I.P.CrimsonFox]

Well, personally, i think that everyone has voiced very good opinions here. While i do enjoy case closed and Lupin, I also liked Witch Hunter Robin, Kikiader, Trigun(my favorite), Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, and Blue gender. I do think that the demographics might be a little lower in age though (like 16-20), I think people of all ages enjoy the shows that are aired on adult swim. I personally am 14 and watch the whole block almost every night Mon.-Thurs., and Fri. (There's really nothing on Sunday that I like, secpt for home movies) So, to wrap this up I think that AS has picked their shows a lot more carefully than we all think.(which in my opinion is pretty well)

[R.I.P.vandion]

Lupin_da_3rd -

Your point is excellent...and obviously leaves a lot of freedom for the creator.  Bebop had a storyline that dominated a few episodes and was tossed in here and there in others...the other episodes were generally unrelated.  Those episodes allowed for a lot of flexibility in the stories.

insistenttrip makes a good point in the other direction though...you want the show to make you want to come back tomorrow.  You don't really make money (or establish loyalty) with someone who shows up one or twice a week.  You've really sold [AS] when you bring people back every night.  If [AS] was only on the weekends, it probably wouldn't be as big a deal.

Of course, all of your shows don't have to follow that model...but if only some of them do, you have to sell your viewers on those few.  If all of your shows have a storyline that keeps your attention (therefore bringing you back every night), you'll get more people in because you'll have more opportunities to sell the whole [AS] package.  If an average viewer likes 75% of what [AS] plays, you have to bring them back with that 75%.  With each viewer, though, what they like is different...it's a different 75%.  How do you make them all happy?  All of them have to have at least one (or more likely two) shows that sell them on the whole night...and if all of the shows you play have the 'bring them back' quality, you bring in more people.

My argument depends on the line of thinking that a linear storyline focuses interest and makes a viewer more likely to come back every day to keep up.

Van

[R.I.P.vandion]

I wondered if you were gonna find this thread

I'm not really prone to simply liking or disliking something...I tend to analyze things.  You can't really debate feelings...but you can debate logic (or you can try to).

Van

--and as I write this, Case Closed actually brought up the 'men in black'...

[R.I.P.vandion]

That's part of why I started this thread CrimsonFox...I'm interested in knowing more about the demographic.  I'm 26, and here just about every night.  Many of the people that I work with are within a few years of my age, and they also watch every night.

Of course, I don't always have a lot of sight into the young teenage world.  I just figure that the odds of a young teen being up at the late hours that [AS] is on is less likely than someone my age.  Of course, during the summer all bets are off...

Other than Case Closed and Lupin, I like (and have liked) every show that was in the Action block that I can think of.  Even though I'm not really a fan, they're still on my TV almost every night (if I haven't stopped to work or play the old gamestation).  To one of my previous posts...[AS] has sold me on the entire package, and like all of it or not, I'll be around.

Glad to have some input from a younger crowd!  I wonder what portion of the average viewer base is female?  I don't think that the distribution is 50/50...but is it a 70/30, or more like a 90/10?  I think that traditionally this sort of thing has been mostly for male appeal...

Van

[NickMB]

I think Lupin III is grabbing more and more audience the more it gets aired! The catagory Lupin III would fit under would be a Comedy-Action show! It certainly has the comedy, though it's not all comedy, and it has the action, even though its not all action! In my opinion, the reason Lupin III does not have the regular episode to episode storyline that anime usually has, is because at that time perhaps the production company wanted to emulate the American style cartoon series in which each episode has its own plot. It is evident that the Lupin III manga does follow a storyline, however! And truely, had Lupin III been produced with the same script, only in today's world with today's style of anime, then it would have a larger audience in the US because, no matter what anyone says, people DO judge books (or anime) by their cover (or animation!)! In regards to Case Closed, I find the story of each episode engaging, and the mystery of the episodes keep me watching! As to merchindising, Geonon entertainment releases Lupin III DVDs with the Adult Swim logo on them, and there are several Lupin III action figures on the market. Obvioulsy, Geonon would not release any more Lupin III DVDs had they not been profiting. So in conclusion, I think that each show has its own fans, and no one will like every show on Adult Swim, and not everyone will like shows considered highly popular (I'm sure not everyone liked Friends) but perhaps with a little more effort on the Adult Swim part and Geonon, and even Funimation, with a bit more increased advertising, more audience, especially the fans of classical animation and classic anime, will get hooked onto Lupin III!