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Something interesting I found... it should help you percieve the categorization of the Coralians.
ENDER SERIES SPOILERS BELOW---
Hierarchy of Alienness
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ENDER SERIES SPOILERS BELOW---
Hierarchy of Alienness
The Hierarchy of Alienness is a concept from the Ender's Game series of novels written by Orson Scott Card. It classifies the relationships between humanity and all other creatures. The hierarchy is a four-tiered structure using various classifications to group all "strangers". It is first presented in the book History of Wutan in Trondheim by Valentine Wiggin, published under the pseudonym of Demosthenes. The origin of the terms is the Norwegian language of Trondheim.
The hierarchyUtlännings are strangers of one's own species and one's own world (i.e. community or culture). An utlänning is a person who shares our own cultural identity. For example, if one were to meet a stranger who lived in another city, state, or province, this person would be considered utlänning.
Framlings are strangers who are of one's own species but who are from another world or culture. This is a person who is substantially similar, but significantly different from ourselves. For example, if one met another human who lived on Mars, this person would be a framling (a classic example is Robert A. Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land). At the time the Hierarchy is proposed, each planet in the Ender's Game Universe (other than Earth) has been colonized by a single terrestrial culture or nation, making humans from other planets “framlings”.
Ramen (singular raman) are strangers from another species who are capable of communication and peaceful coexistence with humanity, even if they do not pursue the latter. We are able to exchange ideas with "ramen", but would have little or no common ground with them, at least not initially. Some examples of ramen are some characters of the Star Wars and Star Trek series, including Ewoks, Wookiees, and Vulcans, or fantasy-genre elves, dwarves, gnomes, and so on.
Varelse (pronounced var-ELSS-uh [1]) are strangers from another species who are not able to communicate with us. They are true aliens, completely incapable of common ground with humanity. The quasi-intelligent Descolada virus may or may not have been sentient enough to qualify in this category. It was thought that the Descoladores, creators of the Descolada, were the true sentients, and it was determined at the end of the Ender quartet that it would take years of study to formulate any communication with them. One character describes all animals as being varelse, since “no conversation [with them] is possible. They live, but we cannot guess what purposes or causes makes them act. They might be intelligent, they might be self-aware, but we cannot know it.” The Xenomorph creatures found in James Cameron's Alien series could be considered varelse as well.
(From Wikipedia)
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Sorry if you don't understand some of the terms in this, as alot of the content has to do with the Ender Series.
As you probably figured, the Coralians were initally on the borderline between Ramen and Varelse, but over time have formulated means in which to communicate with us... possibly taking absorbed human's data and creating a Coralian-human from this data... this being Eureka and Sakuya.
But yeah, I thought the Heiarchy of Alienness would be an interesting thing to share with everyone in this topic.Message Edited by Shounen_Legend on 04-08-200703:05 AM
Anyway, basically, I guess I'm thinking too hard about it, especially considering, like everyone's said, the scub have the ability to manipulate physics anyway.
Metatronda wrote:
This is part of why the whole limit of "questions" business they've changed things to in the dub is just dumb, because the issue is the LIFE, which includes both the issues derived from the physical issues (you can only fit so much stuff) AND the more ethereal concerns (too much sentience and thought for the space, and so on). But "the limit of questions" sounds so...mysterious!
Also, the Coral seems to have gone out of its way to try and change the space in order to preserve the old Earth as it was. The animals are still there, the trees are still there, the seas are still there, and it's filtering in the sun to make sure it's got the same environmental conditions on the surface it used to haveHm...but did the Coral do this because they simply wanted to preserve the old Earth...or maybe that was something they did to help entice humanity into coming back and staying?
Message Edited by Metatronda on 04-08-200703:00 AM
Whoamg.
Where shall we start with the revelations? How our planet has been Earth all along? How the scubs have a habit of fusing with beings they want to communicate with, and apparently reeeeaaaallly love communicating? How Diane and Adrock have both joined the Borg - I mean, scub collective and are living in apparent bliss along with other knowledge-philes in the Coralian control center? Or perhaps how Dewey TOTALLY JUST PUSHED THE RED BUTTON!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!
Okay. So Diane has pretty much been absorbed into the collective consciousness of the scubs, and is part of the little bookworm community they have there in the scubs' control cluster, where all incoming knowledge is shared and understood by everyone there. So there are no lies, and no one fears death, 'cause apparently knowing everything makes you all sorts of zen. (Nevermind how freaky it would probably be to be hit with all the knowledge on the planet.) It's not really surprising to see Diane and Adrock there existing with/within the Coralian consciousness, given how earnestly they pursued an understanding with the scubs. And now Renton has been brought into the control cluster, which the scubs are showing to him "in this form" with Diane and the library to help him understand what's going on. And he understandably questions whether Diane herself might simply be a projection of his sister sent to explain things to him, but it seems that she actually is his sister just as he is still himself. But I wouldn't be surprised if Diane has given up more of her autonomy than Renton has, since she seems to be a resident while he's just visiting. And also Renton has to have things explained to him, rather than just suddenly knowing everything there is to know.
So Diane relates for us the charming tale of how the scubs crash-landed on Earth some 10,000 years ago, at whose behest even they don't know, and how upon gaining consciousness they immediately set about looking for other beings to communicate with, which for them amounted to fusing with the other creatures, which understandably concerned the humans they eventually encountered, being as how most humans probably dislike the idea of some weird coral thing coming and trying to eat their souls. But it seems that the scubs didn't mean any harm to any of the creatures they fused with, they were just longing for new minds to interact with, and fusing was the only way they knew to communicate. So eventually the humans got freaked out enough that they up and left the planet, although it was hard to tell if they actually migrated to other planets, or just chilled out in their little space pod that looked an awful lot like the setup the Sages had to float above the planet. If the latter is the case, it might explain why the humans returned to re-colonize the planet, since it seems like eventually their population would grow too large for their little ark. But in the meantime, the scubs assimilated everything left on the planet, and pretty much became the planet, and then they were sad because the only other significantly intelligent life forms on the planet had left them alone without anyone to talk to. And so when the humans came back to the planet after millennia of exile, the scubs were pretty happy about it, but also cautious lest they spook the humans again. And so Sakuya and then Eureka were created, in an attempt to find a way for scubs and humans to interact that didn't involve fusing.
And we also hear about the Limit of Life being reached 3,000 years ago, which is presumably what created the Great Wall that we've heard about, and which produced a tear through which the scubs learned of another dimension on the other side. I wasn't clear about just what or where that other dimension was, since it almost sounded like Diane was referring to their own planet as the other dimension. Which... doesn't really make sense. But at any rate, the scubs got smart and went into a state of hibernation, which leaves us where we are today.
And then Diane drops the bombshell (hee, figuratively speaking) that the control cluster is about to be attacked, and before that happens humanity and the Coralians have to fuse to save themselves, according to the scubs. ...Just how that's going to keep them all from asploding, I don't really know. Unless it's the power of the zen. This does, however, explain Diane's rather ominous comment from the beginning of the episode that she and Renton would always be together now that they were reunited. Renton, of course, prefers a more moderate course of action than having everyone turn into light-consciousness entities, and wants to show everyone that Coralians are kewl even though they're different and that they can live together on their own terms and stuff. Which is pretty much what he and Eureka have been striving for the whole time. (Either that or he just wants to show off his girlfriend to everyone back in Bellforest. ) Eventually the Coralians decide that this might be an okay sort of thing to do, provided that Renton and Eureka can get their butts back and stop the attack that's going to obliterate them all in about, oh, five minutes. But we'll get back to that later. 
So meanwhile, as Renton is having his nice heart-to-heart with his long-lost sister, Eureka finds herself alone and suddenly clutching her book o' hearts, which she decides she has to deliver. Presumably this amounts to reporting back to home base about her experiences with the humans, but I don't think I ever saw her actually give the book to anyone or deposit it anywhere. But she does run into the kids again, and then who should show up but Pa Thurston. Who was remarkably silent during this episode, even as his presence meant a lot to both Eureka and Renton when he arrived. It's kind of nice that Renton had already made his peace with his father through talking with Eureka about him, so all that needed to happen here was an acknowledgement of each other and a certain closure for Renton about where his father ended up. And then they're off in the magically-appearing Nirvash to save the world armed with the power of loooooove that saved both of them (BY OUR POWERS COMBINED!), or at least to see how long they can fend off the attacks, since I suspect that it's not quite as simple as blowing up a few rockets and you're all good.
Oh hey, and there's Dewey. Um... and he appears to be in the process of blowing up the world. Great. After telling everybody about how they're really on Earth and the second Summer of Love is going to be starting any time ('cause, you know, the first one was such a party) and try not to panic dudes 'cause I'm not totally turning your lives upside down or anything. And the loli squad gets the solar panels all aligned, and the pointy thinger of DEATH aimed and charged up (ooh, pretty sparkles...), and then BAM red button. Which of course leaves us wondering how in all the circles of hell Renton and Eureka are supposed to stop the attack on the Coralian core when Dewey... totally just did it. Maybe there's a time warp between wherever Dewey is and bizarro Earth. Or maybe they'll totally Seven Swell their keisters as soon as they come blasting out from wherever they are.
Which speaking of, I'm still not really getting the layout of the planet here. So they're on Earth... but the Earth that Renton and Eureka have been tromping around in is clearly not the same environs as what we've been seeing the whole rest of the series. It would seem, from the way the Nirvash descended to the ocean when it first went beyond the Great Wall, and the big tunnel/pillar thing they flew next to, and possibly the big dark shafts they could see in the distance from the beach, and that one shot where it panned up from the beach to the action above, that bizarro Earth was below the other "planet," which seems both physically implausible and kind of weird. Like, did the humans construct a whole other level of the planet so they could live there without the scubs bothering them? How in blazes would they do that? It does sort of explain why the scubs have been an underground thing, popping up through the ground to make their appearances. But unless there was some greater cosmic force at work (or, say, the scubs created the upper land as some kind of peace offering to the humans or something), I don't really see how this could work. But maybe we'll find out about that sometime later.
Let's see... And Anemone was there all suited up to go out and fight again, but looking absolutely pitiful. I'd really like to know what the deal was with that eye forming right where her tear fell. It could have been a sympathetic reaction to her grief, or it could have been theEND glaring at her weakness and watching her to see if she would fail or betray her master's commands. I'm hoping, given the preview, that we learn more about theEND and how it relates to Anemone and how it feels about everything.
Annnnnnd... Renton is just about as tall as Diane. Kid's done grown up. And boo for the Fix not showing the full opening. (Oh yeah, I probably should mention that I first watched this episode last week on the Fix. I guess it's had plenty of time to simmer. )
Where shall we start with the revelations? How our planet has been Earth all along? How the scubs have a habit of fusing with beings they want to communicate with, and apparently reeeeaaaallly love communicating? How Diane and Adrock have both joined the Borg - I mean, scub collective and are living in apparent bliss along with other knowledge-philes in the Coralian control center? Or perhaps how Dewey TOTALLY JUST PUSHED THE RED BUTTON!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!
Okay. So Diane has pretty much been absorbed into the collective consciousness of the scubs, and is part of the little bookworm community they have there in the scubs' control cluster, where all incoming knowledge is shared and understood by everyone there. So there are no lies, and no one fears death, 'cause apparently knowing everything makes you all sorts of zen. (Nevermind how freaky it would probably be to be hit with all the knowledge on the planet.) It's not really surprising to see Diane and Adrock there existing with/within the Coralian consciousness, given how earnestly they pursued an understanding with the scubs. And now Renton has been brought into the control cluster, which the scubs are showing to him "in this form" with Diane and the library to help him understand what's going on. And he understandably questions whether Diane herself might simply be a projection of his sister sent to explain things to him, but it seems that she actually is his sister just as he is still himself. But I wouldn't be surprised if Diane has given up more of her autonomy than Renton has, since she seems to be a resident while he's just visiting. And also Renton has to have things explained to him, rather than just suddenly knowing everything there is to know.
So Diane relates for us the charming tale of how the scubs crash-landed on Earth some 10,000 years ago, at whose behest even they don't know, and how upon gaining consciousness they immediately set about looking for other beings to communicate with, which for them amounted to fusing with the other creatures, which understandably concerned the humans they eventually encountered, being as how most humans probably dislike the idea of some weird coral thing coming and trying to eat their souls. But it seems that the scubs didn't mean any harm to any of the creatures they fused with, they were just longing for new minds to interact with, and fusing was the only way they knew to communicate. So eventually the humans got freaked out enough that they up and left the planet, although it was hard to tell if they actually migrated to other planets, or just chilled out in their little space pod that looked an awful lot like the setup the Sages had to float above the planet. If the latter is the case, it might explain why the humans returned to re-colonize the planet, since it seems like eventually their population would grow too large for their little ark. But in the meantime, the scubs assimilated everything left on the planet, and pretty much became the planet, and then they were sad because the only other significantly intelligent life forms on the planet had left them alone without anyone to talk to. And so when the humans came back to the planet after millennia of exile, the scubs were pretty happy about it, but also cautious lest they spook the humans again. And so Sakuya and then Eureka were created, in an attempt to find a way for scubs and humans to interact that didn't involve fusing.
And we also hear about the Limit of Life being reached 3,000 years ago, which is presumably what created the Great Wall that we've heard about, and which produced a tear through which the scubs learned of another dimension on the other side. I wasn't clear about just what or where that other dimension was, since it almost sounded like Diane was referring to their own planet as the other dimension. Which... doesn't really make sense. But at any rate, the scubs got smart and went into a state of hibernation, which leaves us where we are today.
And then Diane drops the bombshell (hee, figuratively speaking
) that the control cluster is about to be attacked, and before that happens humanity and the Coralians have to fuse to save themselves, according to the scubs. ...Just how that's going to keep them all from asploding, I don't really know. Unless it's the power of the zen. This does, however, explain Diane's rather ominous comment from the beginning of the episode that she and Renton would always be together now that they were reunited. Renton, of course, prefers a more moderate course of action than having everyone turn into light-consciousness entities, and wants to show everyone that Coralians are kewl even though they're different and that they can live together on their own terms and stuff. Which is pretty much what he and Eureka have been striving for the whole time. (Either that or he just wants to show off his girlfriend to everyone back in Bellforest. ) Eventually the Coralians decide that this might be an okay sort of thing to do, provided that Renton and Eureka can get their butts back and stop the attack that's going to obliterate them all in about, oh, five minutes. But we'll get back to that later. So meanwhile, as Renton is having his nice heart-to-heart with his long-lost sister, Eureka finds herself alone and suddenly clutching her book o' hearts, which she decides she has to deliver. Presumably this amounts to reporting back to home base about her experiences with the humans, but I don't think I ever saw her actually give the book to anyone or deposit it anywhere. But she does run into the kids again, and then who should show up but Pa Thurston. Who was remarkably silent during this episode, even as his presence meant a lot to both Eureka and Renton when he arrived. It's kind of nice that Renton had already made his peace with his father through talking with Eureka about him, so all that needed to happen here was an acknowledgement of each other and a certain closure for Renton about where his father ended up. And then they're off in the magically-appearing Nirvash to save the world armed with the power of loooooove that saved both of them (BY OUR POWERS COMBINED!
), or at least to see how long they can fend off the attacks, since I suspect that it's not quite as simple as blowing up a few rockets and you're all good.Oh hey, and there's Dewey. Um... and he appears to be in the process of blowing up the world. Great. After telling everybody about how they're really on Earth and the second Summer of Love is going to be starting any time ('cause, you know, the first one was such a party) and try not to panic dudes 'cause I'm not totally turning your lives upside down or anything. And the loli squad gets the solar panels all aligned, and the pointy thinger of DEATH aimed and charged up (ooh, pretty sparkles...), and then BAM red button. Which of course leaves us wondering how in all the circles of hell Renton and Eureka are supposed to stop the attack on the Coralian core when Dewey... totally just did it. Maybe there's a time warp between wherever Dewey is and bizarro Earth. Or maybe they'll totally Seven Swell their keisters as soon as they come blasting out from wherever they are.
Which speaking of, I'm still not really getting the layout of the planet here. So they're on Earth... but the Earth that Renton and Eureka have been tromping around in is clearly not the same environs as what we've been seeing the whole rest of the series. It would seem, from the way the Nirvash descended to the ocean when it first went beyond the Great Wall, and the big tunnel/pillar thing they flew next to, and possibly the big dark shafts they could see in the distance from the beach, and that one shot where it panned up from the beach to the action above, that bizarro Earth was below the other "planet," which seems both physically implausible and kind of weird. Like, did the humans construct a whole other level of the planet so they could live there without the scubs bothering them? How in blazes would they do that? It does sort of explain why the scubs have been an underground thing, popping up through the ground to make their appearances. But unless there was some greater cosmic force at work (or, say, the scubs created the upper land as some kind of peace offering to the humans or something), I don't really see how this could work. But maybe we'll find out about that sometime later.
Let's see... And Anemone was there all suited up to go out and fight again, but looking absolutely pitiful. I'd really like to know what the deal was with that eye forming right where her tear fell. It could have been a sympathetic reaction to her grief, or it could have been theEND glaring at her weakness and watching her to see if she would fail or betray her master's commands. I'm hoping, given the preview, that we learn more about theEND and how it relates to Anemone and how it feels about everything.
Annnnnnd... Renton is just about as tall as Diane. Kid's done grown up.
And boo for the Fix not showing the full opening. (Oh yeah, I probably should mention that I first watched this episode last week on the Fix. I guess it's had plenty of time to simmer. )
As I understand it, the scub corals make up the outer shell of the planet. As in, they grew over the planet AS that layer that exists over the Earth, now suspended high above it by the pillars. Which explains why the people don't recognize Earth after seeing it from space.
Cille wrote:
Which speaking of, I'm still not really getting the layout of the planet here. So they're on Earth... but the Earth that Renton and Eureka have been tromping around in is clearly not the same environs as what we've been seeing the whole rest of the series. It would seem, from the way the Nirvash descended to the ocean when it first went beyond the Great Wall, and the big tunnel/pillar thing they flew next to, and possibly the big dark shafts they could see in the distance from the beach, and that one shot where it panned up from the beach to the action above, that bizarro Earth was below the other "planet," which seems both physically implausible and kind of weird. Like, did the humans construct a whole other level of the planet so they could live there without the scubs bothering them? How in blazes would they do that? It does sort of explain why the scubs have been an underground thing, popping up through the ground to make their appearances. But unless there was some greater cosmic force at work (or, say, the scubs created the upper land as some kind of peace offering to the humans or something), I don't really see how this could work. But maybe we'll find out about that sometime later.
As usual, nice post
Humans in 10,000 years must be awfully stupid, because if they simply had a telescope, even basic astromony would have reveiled to them where they are in the galaxy. They should have known full well of where they were (even if the planet had changed orbit.) It seems some poeple may have known (since Norb stashed that earth atlas in the Nirvash forthem.) But I don't understnd why it wasn't common knowledge.
Magil wrote:As I understand it, the scub corals make up the outer shell of the planet. As in, they grew over the planet AS that layer that exists over the Earth, now suspended high above it by the pillars. Which explains why the people don't recognize Earth after seeing it from space.
Cille wrote:
Which speaking of, I'm still not really getting the layout of the planet here. So they're on Earth... but the Earth that Renton and Eureka have been tromping around in is clearly not the same environs as what we've been seeing the whole rest of the series. It would seem, from the way the Nirvash descended to the ocean when it first went beyond the Great Wall, and the big tunnel/pillar thing they flew next to, and possibly the big dark shafts they could see in the distance from the beach, and that one shot where it panned up from the beach to the action above, that bizarro Earth was below the other "planet," which seems both physically implausible and kind of weird. Like, did the humans construct a whole other level of the planet so they could live there without the scubs bothering them? How in blazes would they do that? It does sort of explain why the scubs have been an underground thing, popping up through the ground to make their appearances. But unless there was some greater cosmic force at work (or, say, the scubs created the upper land as some kind of peace offering to the humans or something), I don't really see how this could work. But maybe we'll find out about that sometime later.
As usual, nice post
This also begs the question of"Why did they come back?" Maybe they couldn't find a better home, but it is still very odd, knowing the coralians were there.
I can actually understand Dewey now. The coralians are alien invaders who ran off humanity 10,000 years ago. We saw jet fighters in that flashback, I can only assume they tried to fight back (it had to have been like Independence Day for them, just no happy ending.) The coralians were absorbing the whole world, so of course humans would fight that. Like Diane said, they were VERY aggressive in how they wanted to communicate, so the coralians weren't exactly being nice either. It's not like we would EVER want to merge with another being like that (aside from a few hippies
,) humans value their independence. So it is very easy to understand why the coralians would be hated so much. Dewey is simply trying to take back the earth that was taken away from them in the first place.If coralians can bend phyics so easily, why can't they come up with a simpler way to communicate, sounds redundant, but it's really pretty logical. It would seem that Eureka would have came long before too. And besides that, the coralians have absorbed a good number of humans from the looks of things, why can't they figure humans out better from those people? I'm sure Adrok could've told them plenty himself. It just seems odd.
Also, I had totally called Diane and Adrok both being alive a long time ago
Message Edited by outrider42 on 04-08-200701:16 PM
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