General Action Discussion

[R.I.P.ParadigmDog]

REVISED and SIMPLIFIED-

This is for fans new and old, and those yet to come of THE BIG-O. This thread will not document any of the in-show hints that there's meant to be more, only the production/business facts. I believe this is important for people to know as they continue to watch the BIG-O. (*note, if something says BIG-O 2, it means eps 14-26).

Please read, as I think you'll find it all very interesting and convincing...(esp. #10)

(Remember responders, this is a SPOILER FREE THREAD)

The History (Proof that BIG-O is not over):

1.)

Toonzone.net 1-5-2005 interview with Sean Akins (father of Toonami; who actively helped produce the Second Season --ep. 14-26-- of THE BIG-O).

TZ: Toonami's helped get new episodes of some old shows on the air, like ReBoot and The Big O. Are there any series you'd like to see continued?

SA: The Big O, we co-produced that second season. I thought it was a great project, I liked it a lot. But I think it's a little bit too cerebral. It started off on Toonami and moved to Adult Swim, and it did okay but it wasn't really burning it up. I would love to see that finished, but I think the likelihood of that is slim to none. Mainly, these days we're trying to make new shows, co-produce new shows, and get some new things on the air instead of looking back.

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2.)

Animenewsnetwork.com (2003-06-09 18:23:10): More Big O
According to an article on Television Week, Cartoon Network has an option for 26 more episodes of "The Big O" should the series do well on Adult Swim. That's 26 additional episodes after the 13 new ones.

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3.)

July 10th 2004: The head writer of BIG-O, Chiaki J. Konaka, for a time, puts up an picture ad/link to SaveBigO.com for BIG-O continuing saying: "Do You Want to See 3rd?"

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4.)

Though I don't have the direct quote, ADULT SWIM's bumpers talked excitedly about a Season 3 early during Season 2's first run if ratings did well.

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5.)

What is the mood of the Japanese producer of BIG-O Season 2 and the team that works on the series?

Big O 2 producer Chieo Ohashi sat down for an interview in Newtype #3 to talk a little about Big O 2. (excerpt)--

TW: It must've been a fun series to make.

CO: Yes, it was. I'm glad I was able to get the staff that worked on the first series back together again. We had our ups and downs, but I think it turned out great, so please look forward to it!

(Doesn't sound like he'd mind continuing on; they like the series).

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6.) HOWEVER:

In the summer of 2004 this postcard response was given to a fan by Adult Swim:

As I am sure you well know, the anime world is filled with vast wastelands of mindless drivel, so when we come across something that is both well written and thought provoking, we take note. Although we here at Adult Swim have no end of respect for anime and especially culturally significant series such as Big O, at this time we can no longer continue to fund such a massive undertaking as befits the maintenance of the Big O. Someone has to pay for the city blocks he destroyed. In actuality, we love the series and would not have asked for a second season to be produced if we thought it was not worth pursuing. Nevertheless, we belong to cable television network, and while we have a fair amount of freedom in what we produce, we are not gods. Minor deities, maybe, but gods, no.

In short, float us a loan, and then we will talk about a third season.

In the mean time, we hope to have a whole bevy of new, equally engaging anime to share with the world. Hopefully one or two of them will sufficiently break and rebuild the minds of our viewers in the grand tradition of Big O and FLCL.

Forever yours,
Adult Swim"

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7.)

Now here's the big question that no one truly knows. What factors precisely are really stopping BIG-O from continuing when:

As of August 12 2003, here's what the BIG-O did on the Nielson Report:
* The Big O (Sunday, 11 p.m.), an exciting crime drama co-produced by Cartoon Network and Japanese production company Sunrise, Inc., scored among adults 18-24, with delivery of 191,000 (up 173%) and ratings of 0.7 (up 133%.) Among adults 18-34, The Big O earned delivery of 442,000 (up 122%) and a rating of 0.7 (up 173%).

The rest of that report noted how overall Cartoon Network was dominating. How is this not good enough ratings for BIG-O continuing?

As for the funds...

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8.)

Animenewsnetwork.com (2003-06-19 02:11:30):
Cartoon Network Animation Budget:

In an article primarily about animation from India, IndianTelevision.com quotes Turner Entertainment Network senior VP Ian Diamond as saying that Cartoon Network, globally, has set aside $500 Million over five years for the creation of new animation.

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9.)

Additionally... (from animenewsnetwork.com):

"Cartoon Network the fastest growing network at Turner Broadcasting

Cartoon Network, the cable TV home of many anime series such as Case Closed, Wolf's Rain and, Inuyasha is the fastest growing network in Turner Broadcasting's impressive line-up of networks that includes CNN, TBS and TNT. In fact, investors and press recently learned that Cartoon Network is more profitable than CNN. In 2003 Cartoon Network turned $650 million in revenue, 17% of the the entire Turner Broadcasting revenue, compared to $535 million (14%) in revenue for CNN and the rest of Turner Broadcastings news operations.

Cartoon Network's financial success is being attributed to increased ad revenue thanks to its ever increasing adult audience, and low operating costs. Adult Swim has consistently ranked #1 in its time period (11 pm - 2 am) on basic cable with adults 18-34, against competition from late night talk shows like NBC's Tonight Show with Jay Leno and the CBS Late Show with David Letterman.

In early July Cartoon Network reported impressive growth statistics over last year for Adult Swim in key adult demographics such as 23% in adults 18-34, 47% in adults 18-24 and 76% in women 18-24."

...I guess it's a question of allocation of the funds...

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10.) (THE BIG ONE) How does this business act make sense?

06-09-2003 it is reported that Cartoon Network has optioned 26 more after the first 26. This was done TWO MONTHS before Big-O Season 2 aired in the US whatsoever--it had been out in Japan for a while at this point. When you offered originally just the season 2 (13-additional episodes) the first time around, why would you, without knowing how ratings, sales, and overall response would go on 13 additional episodes to a 3-year old series in limbo, offer the chance for the studio to realize 26 MORE stories for a total of 52. Not 13, but 26 right off the bat. (Keep in mind that ratings in Japan months earlier hadn't been the greatest as I recall...so you're going out on the longest limb ever, basically.) Somehow I doubt Cartoon Network, a corporation, would take that big of a leap of faith. And yet the report says they "Optioned it".

This leads me to believe that Konaka and crew had more to tell (which Sean Akins supports clearly in his interview), and said/showed some convincing things that the magic number 26 was needed for Konaka to tell the tale as he envisioned with all the editing that had to be done in the past. Zopwx2 has stated that there were some rumors of scripts for "Season 3" floating around Cartoon Network, however this is not known to be a fact. Still, if it is remotely true (and maybe that's why Mr. Akins made such a clear assertion about BIG-O not being finished), then this leads me to moreso beleive that the early plans for the next chapter of BIG-O required 26 more.

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11.) The latest word...

as of Jan 19th "there are no current plans" within Cartoon Network's decision-makers regarding producing the rest of BIG-O.

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What can I do?

SaveBigO.com 

is currently the biggest fan gathering pushing for CN to finish BIG-O. Join up and show your support. The more people the better. Send letters as instructed on the site to CN reps. That's how Season 2 happened!

http://www.freewebs.com/seebach/

has a lot of direct info about how to help and why there needs to be a Season 3, if SaveBigO didn't cover your questions. (SPOILERS abound there)

Paradigm-City.com

is the largest place to find fans of Big-O in general. Make some noise for Season 3.

Finally...

Show your love for Big-O on the Adult Swim Boards.

WE MUST HAVE SEASON 3! 

Message Edited by ParadigmDog on 03-02-2005 06:57 PM

[BlueBerryPie]

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ParadigmDog wrote:

WE MUST HAVE SEASON 3! 

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Unfortunately... I find this to be a want, not a need. Cuz... people have lived a long time before Big-O was ever even thought up of. I'm sure we can survive several thousand more years without it... but I still like to see a 3rd season, if it is done properly.

[JellyBeana]

I agree. Considering that the "end" was looped around to the beginning again, how could they possibly continue the series?

[R.I.P.Kagome800]

Well, I joined "SaveBigO.com", don't know how much good it'll do, but I'm all for season 3.

[R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks]

Okay, that's taking this a little too literally. Let's put it this way, the story of Big O is incomplete and so it needs a conclusion in the form of season three. And since the fans, the poor saps who one day chanced upon this show from staying up too late or watching too much Toonami are have since been doomed to consume mass quantities of asprin for to purge our heads of terrible pains inflected upon us when we attempted to understand Big O in the aforementioned incomplete state must have a season three. Whoa, just had a Babylon 5 flashback. You know the movie fell through? Oh well, we'll probably get one of those eventually too.

Thanks for putting this all together, ParadigmDog. Between you me and the trees in the next week we need to post the information of why Big O is not complete to get everyone in the right mindset for act 26. I want a season three so bad. . . ow, my head.

::wanderers off::

[cdub2314]

 I just joined Savebigo.com

[R.I.P.Kagome800]

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cdub2314 wrote:
 I just joined Savebigo.com

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Me too! What's your name on there?

[BlueBerryPie]

I don't see how the ending is "incomplete". Sure, the conclusion is wide open for the possibility of a continuation, but so are several other animes, like Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain, just to name a couple. I see nothing wrong with just 26 episodes, but that's just me along with several other viewers who enjoy Big-O for what it is now rather than what it could be. Lots of animes go under this kind of ordeal, certain fans wishing, petitioning, or demanding that new episodes be produced for a certain show, but in the end, the creators have the final word. They saw fit to end Big-O as it is, just like plenty of other animes.

Just explain to me how the story is "incomplete" and why a third season needs to be made.

[R.I.P.Dark-0]

PD I think you and Zop are brothers or something, you guys always have the right information on tap.  Everyday I am seeing more and more signing up to SBO.   Keep it up Seebach, PD, and also Dork who continues to fight .  When the people sees act 26 they will decided for themselfs.

[Zopwx2]

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BlueBerryPie wrote:

I don't see how the ending is "incomplete". Sure, the conclusion is wide open for the possibility of a continuation, but so are several other animes, like Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain, just to name a couple. I see nothing wrong with just 26 episodes, but that's just me along with several other viewers who enjoy Big-O for what it is now rather than what it could be. Lots of animes go under this kind of ordeal, certain fans wishing, petitioning, or demanding that new episodes be produced for a certain show, but in the end, the creators have the final word. They saw fit to end Big-O as it is, just like plenty of other animes.

Just explain to me how the story is "incomplete" and why a third season needs to be made.

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Its not really an explanation of why, becuase there are a few good kind of metaphorical type explanation that fit somewhat, but if you decieded to stick with the meat and potatoes plot, here are a few q's just left out in the open:

What are those gears at the bottom of the ocean? What was all that about rogers coming off an assembly line? Why was there a picture of young gordon shaking hands with roger with an unfinished dome behind them? What was their contract? What is big venus? What is the point of those stagelights? What was the vision of roger with a seatbelt and different clothes all about? What is with b666? What is that underground place? Why did angel grow wings? What was that control room at the end? why was she rehersering her own life? why was she desigining a dorothy doll? why did everything get erased? what was roger doing driving at the end again? he was still a negotiator.... why were angel and dorothy standing at the side of the road? WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT GIANT YELLOW THING THAT GOT TEN SECONDS OF AIR TIME?! What is the nature of android/megadeus compatitibily? What is it that schwarzwald wrote to roger? What does beck know about androids and megadei? What exactly was gordons tomato project going to do, perserve memories? What memories? What was that giant ball of light that turned the sky to a giant grid? What is with glinda and dr waynerights mansion? Why does he have a copper room? The never fully explained the the soldano/wayneright situation? What is with winter night phantom and the repeating movie and mini dastun? What was going on in that scene where there were three rogers a including tomato child and invisable man? What did those images of many bigs figthing leviathans and destroying paradigm mean? What happend 40 years ago? Is there even such thing as 40 years ago? Is paradigm even real?

Otherwise the main factor here is that the 3rd season seemed like a sure thing to everyone, and then the plug was pulled. And the reason we've been given over and over is not becuase of creative problems, but becuase of financial problems.

And Time warner is already funding 3 brand new animes! So why would they abandon a show with a built in fan base....

[Zopwx2]

TIME WARNER TO PRODUCE NEW ANIME

"Time Warner and Itochu Corp (C. Itoh & Co.) have announced that they will jointly produce new anime to be broadcast simultaneously on Cartoon Network in Japan and North America.

By April 2006, the joint venture is expected to be producing weekly episodes for three shows, at a budget of 20 million yen ($US 190,000) per episode, 20 to 50 percent higher than the current average budget for anime TV series. The added budget will be spent on higher-than-average quality animation using more animators and other staff than is typically used in anime.

By June 2005, the joint venture is expected to be set up with a fund of 3 billion yen (US$29 million) and will seek funding from other partners including broadcasters, animation studios, and toy manufacturers.

In addition to producing the anime, the companies expect to profit from the development and marketing of related merchandise. Guaranteed spots on the American and Japanese Cartoon Networks, combined with the worldwide popularity of anime, is expected to insure better than average returns on investment, enticing investors.

The anime series will also be marketed to international broadcasters in Europe and Asia."

SOURCE

[BlueBerryPie]

Hmmmm... could you give episode names/numbers beside each of those questions for those of us with fuzzy memories on when these questions first arrived?

[Zopwx2]

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BlueBerryPie wrote:
Hmmmm... could you give episode names/numbers beside each of those questions for those of us with fuzzy memories on when these questions first arrived?

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Not really, but a good chunk of them were things that were introduced in the last 2 acts.

[R.I.P.ParadigmDog]

BlueBerryPie-

The thing of this is, it's not us fans saying there's supposed to be more...it's not about us, it's about the creators really. There's evidence (both business-wise and story-wise) that says there's more to be told. That's what this post was all about (I listed the info...I don't need to point it out here). The creators want to continue but were stopped due to money reasons. This isn't like Cowboy Bebop or Wolf's Rain where the creators didn't intend for the series to continue. Big-O's story hasn't run its full course yet. Our want is fueled by the BIG-O CREATORS' want.

'Metaphorically,' BIG-O can end where it is, but there's a heck of a lot of meat and potatoes to be discussed as Zopwx2 generally noted. In fact, if you look at the world's incredible details, none of it really makes sense in the end, only the overall metaphor does (and only to an extent). That's a shame, because it doesn't show off the writers' full genius. In fact, it cheats the show and makes everything seem like pointless filler to make a metaphor. When you don't get to see things add up that's sad. The ends don't get to justify the means. Even Akira's and Wolf's Rain's ambigious endings wrapped things up... Aside from philosophically, BIG-O didn't wrap things up, it only left more questions to the characters and world of Paradigm and its fate.

To say it'll just loop back and be the same repetition is to not understand what we've learned so far about the cycle through the memories we've been allowed to see. Was this time around the cycle the same as Roger's memories? No. We're moving toward something...a revelation and conclusion, even if its not totally clear. What we have is not a true conclusion. It's just a loose explanation of the philosophy behind the story and the beginning of the possible solution to Paradigm's problems.

Plus, the metaphor in itself is very incomplete...it's been given to us overall, but there hasn't been a purpose or more importantly an answer presented. How will the main characters act to change the curious course of Paradigm? Isn't that the basic crux of the whole series? What can free will do in the face of fatalism? How can we learn from the uncertain past to change the uncertain future? Why is Paradigm suffer this deadly curse of sorts?  There's still a great task ahead for all of Paradigm, resting on the shoulders of a few. To leave the rest of the episodes out would be like not letting Luke face up to Dearth Vader in Starwars (to use one example), or not let Vash take on Knives in Trigun.

I don't want to go into specifics of the unanswered elements any further, which are plentiful and could be brilliently explored with more episodes simply because I wanted to keep this thread away form big, blatent spoilers if I could. (I must say that Zopwx2, looking again, got a good deal of my biggest questions...and none of them have anything remotely resembling closure--those are HUGE and IMPORTANT plot holes introduced for seemingly nothing if the story really was to end here...however, that doesn't seem to be the case).

We fight for Season 3, because the clues of open business and story say there's more. We're not fanatics, we've got stuff to back us up--the whole reason we're fighting is becuase we were told (by AS) there could be a Season 3 if Season 2 did well (as well as the other big evidence above, like Akins and Konaka's statements--Two men intimately involved with BIG-O Season 2). We don't want thing shanded on a silver platter, we just want the writers to be able to tel all they want to tell. When they're done, we'll accept whatever they decide with their story. They should be allowed to finish what they've started.

Not one single creator from the BIG-O has said the whole thing's done. When Konaka says that, I'll listen... but he said "Do you want to see 3rd?"

Yes, Konaka, we want to see 3rd, we'll support you to do it just like last time when you wanted Season 2. That's basically what that question was all about as far as I'm concerned. There's been no public statements to the contrary, only ones to back it up.

Message Edited by ParadigmDog on 03-02-2005 10:45 PM

[cdub2314]

Kagome800 wrote:

Me too! What's your name on there?

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It is the same as my adultswim user name: cdub2314

[cdub2314]

What's yours?

[FlameBait]

Me too.

[babyghia]

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JellyBeana wrote:

I agree. Considering that the "end" was looped around to the beginning again, how could they possibly continue the series?

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Actually, go back and compare the beginning of the series with the ending. It's not a perfect loop. There are major differences.

I'd explain more but since this is a Spoiler Free thread, I'm not. But look around. There are threads and posts that talk about this.

BabyGhia

[morelia]

I still want to see a third season of the Big O. Thanks for the spoiler free post. Big O must go on!

[cdub2314]

Hey pdog what is your SBO user name?

[Zopwx2]

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cdub2314 wrote:
Hey pdog what is your SBO user name?

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Uncle Schwarzwald

[cowboy_bebop_boxers]

Mine's Miss_Gabriel. I'm new, go me... but I'm not PDog. Sorry.

Big O season three! YAY! I want more on the Union goddamn it! Because...

If Vera, Alan, and Angel are Agents 12, 271, and 340, who're the other 337 agents? Wandering question there.

[R.I.P.ParadigmDog]

As noted by Zopwx2, it's 'Uncle_Schwarzwald' at SaveBigO.com

[turbofb]

Count me in.

While Im not as intensly scrutinous of the plot holes like PD,Zop or Dork...I do love this whole twisted story.Ive watched my DVDs many times over and I agree that there is more than can be told.While I personally feel that you can enjoy this story without more Acts,I would whole heartedly support more if they decided to do it.As mentioned before,the metaphor was adequatly explained,but the actual events that the charactors experienced werent explained very clearly.

[R.I.P.NVWC2006]

This is a nice job at getting across all the facts we have about Big O at the moment, minus actual information about the show, all in once place. Good work PD. I have one minor addition that PCF's and SBO's YoruameBaroness discovered today, that TV Tome now has a section on it's Big O pages for season 3, though under the episode guides, it simply says To Be Announced. Not an official thing or anything but to me, a slight glimmer of hope, if such a big site with all that information was willing to even put out a single page for the possibility of a Season 3.

Yes, Big O is not over. I wish it would continue, it is my favorite TV Show and anime. However, I think even if every Big O fan were to donate a dollar to a Save Big O fund and then hand it over to CN and AS and say 'you can have these $8+ million if you make us our final 26 episodes', that we'd still have a bad chance at getting our wish.

Nevertheless, Big O is incomplete, and deserves to have its mysteries solved. Please, let Schwarzwald show us the real truth, let Roger finish his negotiations on the behalf of Gordon Rosewater if he hasn't already, and let Angel finally get over Roger, because he belongs to R. Dorothy!