General Games Discussion

[DreamTheater2112]

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PenguinBoss wrote:

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DreamTheater2112 wrote:

lololol this is easily the worst they've ever done.

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Nah, far from the worst, I'd say. I enjoyed it, though it could have been fleshed out more and there were what I thought to be plotholes. Although, it could have just been Noel and I would have been okay with it.

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Barring V, I never played V. But other than that, nothing else comes close, except for maybe X-2. But basically this was not a quality game period. And in terms of what I expect out of gaming quality from the franchise, the game was crap.

[PenguinBoss]

Pffft, you're crazy.

[DreamTheater2112]

What was worse then?

IV, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII?

[PenguinBoss]

Storywise or worse in general?

[DreamTheater2112]

If you're honestly gonna say either you're a terrible troll.

[PenguinBoss]

I just really don't think it's the abortion you're making it out to be.

[DreamTheater2112]

I defending XIII to the grave when everyone said it was an abortion, so i'm not one of those bandwagon lets hate on FF "fans". And I'm not saying this is terrible, but it is the worst in the franchise that I've played bar none. Now I have thought every other game I've played in the franchise is incredibly good, so that tilts the scale a bit, it's not a terrible game, but it's by far the least enjoyable one I've played out of the 8 i have played

[PenguinBoss]

I don't recall defending XIII to the grave, but I also don't recall bashing it, either. I rather enjoyed it.

Having said that, I enjoyed XIII-2 more.

[DreamTheater2112]

No I said I did, I thought XIII was a good game, albeit not a great FF, but a great game.

Really, to each his own I guess, but I thought it was worse on about every level.

[PenguinBoss]

I know, but I wasn't sure where you were going with your first sentence.

Mog /argument

[DreamTheater2112]

I was just saying I'm not a part of the whole "FF hasn't been good in a decade so imma bash every game that's come out since 1998" or whatever.

...This I can understand.

[PenguinBoss]

I'm kind of like that. I didn't think any of the PS2 era games were good. I've liked XIII and XIII-2, but they didn't captivate me like the older ones.

[DreamTheater2112]

I got completely immersed in XII. I'm surprised you didn't like that one, that had a very old gen feel compared to X and XII

[PenguinBoss]

IX was the last one that felt old gen to me.

I don't have a problem with the basis of XII's story, but I can't say I liked much else in it. I found it boring.

The special attacks were cool, though. And Gilgamesh was in it, so I couldn't completely hate it.

[Blah_canbespanish]

I prefer XIII-2 over I, II, III, IV, V, VII, X-2, XII, and XIII.

SPOILERS AHOY:

The only thing I didn't like about this game is how unbalanced the level system is. If you did even half of the few side quests you come across, just by doing the main story, you will probably end up overleveled at some point and just blaze through. Some of the bosses are pretty fun if done at the correct level, but most will probably never see that. It's a shame too, as a simple level cap or a blanket reduction in CP gain could of gone a long way.

As for the story, I actually enjoyed it. I see a lot of people harp on the dialogue, but it seemed like standard JRPG corniness to me. I may just be desensitized to this stuff by now, as it didn't bother me at all. The overall plot was enjoyable, some of the side quests plot lines were interesting, and the "silly" Live Trigger answers provided some excellent humor in otherwise super srs moments.

I have to completely disagree with you on the character part too. I agree there were no huge character shift/crisis moments like in most FF games, but there was some character development. It was just much more subtle or carry over from XIII. Seeing how Hope had matured and Serah going from damsel-in-distress to someone worthy of being Lightning's sister were the highlights for me.

Noel himself didn't mature, but then he didn't need to. Only believable change I could even think of for him would be if he basically became Caius (one of the Paradox Endings sort of has him going down this route too). I was quite happy he wasn't the usual FF protag, he had already experienced serious hardship and instead of dwelling/moping about it(like nearly every other lead) he tries to makes things better right away. This is probably why I think he's the best lead we've had since Zidane.

Similarly I found Caius to be a wonderful villain. His motives actually made sense, and he demonstrated incredible cunning and foresight without wondering into Gambit Roulette territory. I guess since we play as the protagonist most players will be miffed with how things ended, but I was pretty impressed with it. Looking back, the split second grin Caius gives during the final QTE was just wonderful. Clever son of a #### knew he had won no matter what happened.

I'm not sure where the deus ex machina is either. If anything they specifically avoided such a thing by not hand-waving the fact that the Heart of Chaos = Etro. I was seriously pissed for the first half of the ending CGI as I thought they were doing a "screw the plot, happily ever after!" ending. Then the world ended and everything got awesome.

Would I have preferred the game kept going from there? Certainly, but I didn't feel dissatisfied at all. I look forward to the proposed Lightning and Sahz episode DLCs to further expand on things. A Snow DLC that acts sort of as a follow up to the "Future is Hope" paradox ending would be welcome too. A FFXIII-3 would be best though.

[harryfrodo]

Let me just ask you one question: would you have preferred just playing Sazh's and Lightning's story to begin with instead of this world-building exercise that Noel and Serah put us through? I think it feels pretty cheap to make a $60 game that has pretty much nothing to do with anything and then charge us for DLC to play the characters we actually cared about.

[harryfrodo]

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DreamTheater2112 wrote:
I got completely immersed in XII. I'm surprised you didn't like that one, that had a very old gen feel compared to X and XIII

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FF12 is one of my favorites right next to FFX. But I'm a die-hard FF8 fan so I guess my opinion is the minority.

I definitely understand the Vaan-hate, but I loved the battle system. As someone that played MMOs for years, it was awesome to see the system implemented, and implemented correctly in a single-player game.

And now that they've announced an FFX HD-make coming out this year, I hope they make one for XII too.

[DragonDaime]

I'm almost done with this game, but instead of beating it already, I'm farming.  It's just too easy (and definitely much easier than it's predecessor).

But, I don't want to talk about it... or maybe I do.  I'm not sure yet.

Anyways, I just wanted to make a comaprison since a lot of people keep complaining about X-2.  I will admit, it was a terrible game, but the combat system was fun and interesting.  And, what do you know?  The combat system in XIII & XIII-2 is awfully similar to the combat system in X-2.  The difference between the two is that you can manually control everyone in X-2; while you can only control one character or the party, as a whole.  Oh. And X-2 at "ultimate" formsinstead of attacks (I prefered that versus the "ultimate" attacks, that clear stagger, in XIII & XIII-2.  Though, I do admit that Lightning's was a little fun to watch).

*shrugs*  I'm just saying...

Now, I shall await for someone to tell me that I'm wrong (because there will always be that someone).

[harryfrodo]

Yeah, but there was the one element in X-2 that made it still fun to play that is severely lacking in XIII-2: challenge. And perhaps X-2's only real saving grace was seeing how far you can get through Via Infinito without wanting to break your controller in half.

I never really thought that FFXIII was a hard game, but it was definitely harder than what XIII-2 is, which just makes the game incredibly dull. The constant Paradigm Shifting is what made XIII a lot of fun, but in XIII-2 I find myself rolling through almost all encounters of the game switching away from Relentless Assault to use Diversity ... MAYBE Combat Clinic in a rare situation. It's true that Sentinel was relatively useless save a few situations in FFXIII, but it feels like Synergist and Saboteur pretty much take a backseat with Sentinel in XIII-2. And that's annoying, because that's half the roles in the game you're just shelving. That's not an effective combat system when you're using only two classes over 95% of the time.

To draw back to your example of X-2 comparison, it's been a long time since I played it, but I remember shifting dress spheres constantly in combat, even in routine encounters. That's what makes this system enjoyable. That's what makes this system work. And when you take the Paradigm Shift combat system and make it so where you don't really have to shift, you ultimately have a system where you're sitting there tapping the 'A' button over and over again. 20 hours in that gets pretty boring, and I still haven't had the desire to put the game back in the disc tray, leaving it uncompleted.

[DragonDaime]

Did you ever use RAV/RAV/SOB?  I used that Paradigm most.  But, you're right about not shifting paradigms all that much. You just set to one, and keep to it, unless you're fighting a boss. That final mark in XIII was #### ridiculous!

What I don't understand is why more people prefer XIII-2 over X-2?  I'm not going to lie; I enjoyed playing X-2 (and the fact that I have ovaries has nothing to do with it).  It was because of the combat system.  And, apparently, people are making the same argument for XIII-2.  Both of them have week stories, and, yet, more people are still swaying towards XIII-2 when X-2 is clearly the superior when it comes to being fun & challenging.

[harryfrodo]

FFX spoilers.

Spoiler

Because Tidus is dead. He was dead the entire time, and his spirit was freed with the defeat of Sin. I guess it's a "sad" ending if you care about the love story that much, but for all intents and purposes it was a great ending, if not the best of the franchise. To shit all over that is just insulting to the fanbase. The only sequel I could think of them coming up with that would be even more insulting would be a FFVII-2, where Aeris is somehow alive even though WE ALL SAW HER DIE.

That reason, and that reason alone. X-2 is the low point for the franchise for myself and likely many others for that reason, and I pray to God we never see such a revisionist attitude ever again. I don't care how good the plot is. You just don't do that. It's like a terrible anime plot twist that you'd expect only in the worst of shonen bullshit.

Yes, XIII-2 has a ridiculous plot, and I don't really care for it. But it's more so the narrative that bothers me rather than the time travel aspect. As I said before, I am a huge fan of FFVIII, which had significant themes of time travel, though they did a much better job at making it work than they are here. But again. Yes, XIII-2 has a ridiculous plot. But the funny thing is that no matter how ridiculous the plot gets, FFXIII-2 does spend a considerable amount of time explaining itself and making the events seem somewhat plausible following the events of FFXIII. It doesn't just do what X-2 did in crapping all over the previous ending and running with it. Square-Enix definitely crafted this plot with logic in mind, however terrible it is.

All that being said, I haven't beaten the game yet, and that opinion might change.

[PenguinBoss]

I thought that:

Spoiler

Tidus was a dream of the Fayth and never existed in the first place.

which really only makes it worse.

[harryfrodo]

FFX spoilers

Spoiler

Well, yes. But I figured they re-created Zanarkand from memory, and that Tidus and Jecht did exist as individuals at one time. Who knows.

[DragonDaime]

That five-slap at the end brought a tear to my eye.

You do bring up a good point.  I do prefer the XIII-2 story over the X-2 story of traveling all over the place to find spheres of Tidus (or his incarnate?).

The ending...

Spoiler

And the end of X-2 pretty much confirms Tidus' death, and that he didn't really have anything to do with the story (other than the fact that Yuna is searching for his existence)... That is unless you get 100%, then you unlock the reuniting with Tidus ending (the "happy" one).

Okay, yeah... the story was way worse than XIII-2.  It has been so long since I played through it, that I completely forgot what it was about.

I do understand the story for XIII-2, but I still think it doesn't truly tie-in with how XIII ended.  I thought it ended well.  Instead, the ending we got didn't really happen because history was changed whenever that dark force tried escaping from Valhalla.  So to get back the true timeline, we have to fight off Caius and prevent him from granting the world eternal rest because he's tired of seeing all the Yuels die (if he couldn't handle it emotionally, he shouldn't have fought & killed for the position).

Originally, I thought the fal'Cie were the "Gods" of the XIII story, but I was completely wrong after XIII-2 came out and Etro was introduced.

Sure, they try to find ways to make the new story relate to the old one, but it does seem pretty shoddy.

[DarkKingSilvers]

I really couldn't have said it better myself.

Now that I've finished XIII-2, I'd put it on par with XIII, behind IX, IV, and VII.

SPOILERS AHEAD:

Likes:

Noel, Serah, Caius. While I understand some people may hate how few characters were in party, and admittedly I would've liked there to have been more, I loved the main cast here. Serah's evolution from XIII to the end of XIII-2 was excellent, especially in the ending. I felt like I was watching the end to Chrono Crusade all over again, and for that show, I loved the ending there too. Noel, while he didn't develop much per se throughout the game, was one of the best characters in terms of fleshing out in probably the entire FF franchise. And Caius, oh man. I loved what SE did with him. I love twisted logic villains and he did not disappoint, right up to the very end. While Caius and Noel reek of the Cloud and Sephiroth ordeal, I still enjoyed every bit of the story.

The side stories and side characters were also great. Alyssa in Ch. 2, Hope's development (granted it wasn't much in this game, but I love how much he's grown since the beginning of XIII), Snow well...he didn't change too much aside from his hairstyle.

Gotta catch 'em all. Love it. Miniflan is also a boss.

Also, the music in this game was fantastic. I enjoyed the route the composers took to throw in more vocals to the BGM and while some may call it laziness, I really enjoyed the inclusion of several XIII tracks. I felt there were just enough for nostalgia value, but still having enough new tracks so I was never like "omg, this music AGAIN?". Despite the ridiculous amount of Cie'th, I want to just go to Academia 400AF and listen to the latin chanting orchestra over and over.

Lastly, that ending was amazing. Bring on XIII-3 SE.

Dislikes:

Like everyone else, I agree the crystarium and level progression is pretty fudged up in this game. It would've been better if the Crystarium had been kept the same as from XIII, but instead make each role much more focused (meaning, no Magic spheres in the Commando Role, stuff like that). I also disliked how the Accessory Capacity thing was added. I think someone said it before, why have 4 accessory slots if you'll only be able to hold two decent ones at max?

Odds or Evens, Heads or Tails, Right Hand or Left Hand in the Brain Blast games. Seriously, fuuuuuudge those questions.

Square plastering Lightning everywhere then her not really being in the game at all aside from the beginning. That was BS. Let alone they ignored Sazh, but supposedly there will be some DLC focusing on that so I'm looking forward to that.

I also felt that Square really missed the mark regarding the world they created in XIII. It really was very much "convenient" for them to introduce stuff like Etro and such, and literally forgetting about half the base they used for XIII. They could have definitely weaved in the whole Etro thing with the Fal'cie, L'cie stuff. And they really did leave a lot of loose ends (Snow's L'cie mark, Alyssa, etc.), but I wonder if that was intentional to set up for DLC/XIII-3 or what.

Rambling:

In the end, XIII-2 is a flawed game, but it's still a really good game and I look forward to getting the other fragments and the eventual XIII-3. While Square did try to address all the concerns with XIII, they definitely overreached in a few cases and made mistakes in other areas, and while there were some tradeoffs (smaller cast, better development), overall I enjoyed this game and think it is a welcome addition to the franchise. I just hope Square takes the best from both games and makes XIII-3 a God-tier RPG.