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ritster21
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Toshimori and Masamori "Heavy Spoilers from Manga"

[ Edited ]

How powerful do you think Toshimori would be if he started his Kekkaishi training?

 

Do you think Toshimori would have more energy than Tokine just like Yoshimori?

 

Do you think Toshimori can be just as powerful as Masamori?

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BUU8800
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to ritster21 - Message ID#: 63460977

I'm not an expert on this series but I'd guess he could become as powerful as the others with enough training...though purely a guess.  Masamori was probably the only character in the series I actually liked....

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boborudnik
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to BUU8800 - Message ID#: 63463915

Yoshimori is brimming with natural talent for Kekkaishi techniques, but he lacks the discipline of Masamori in perfecting his skills to control those powers. Toshimori already has some basic training, but I don't think he has the power to do things like come up with a zekkai on his own. He seemed like he was straining when he used them on his friends.

But Toshimori did have more success when fighting the house invaders. Didn't he seem rather excited when he actually metsu'ed one of them?

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ritster21
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

[ Edited ]

Reply to boborudnik - Message ID#: 63467157

Well, I don't think Masamori had the power to come up with the zekkai on his own either at 9 years old.

 

Plus, the zekkai seems to be more of a personality type power. Yoshimori has lots of power, but he only has a 10% success rate. Yoshi just doesn't have enough negative feelings to do it.

 

I'm sure that if Toshimori is "sad" enough, he can do a Zekkai. Just not at 9 years old.

 

And given how Shigemori was not surprised that Masamori can do a Zekkai, I am sure all Kekkaishis can learn any techinque.

 

Some techniques just are not suitable for every Kekkaishi. But that doesn't mean they can't do it.  Tokine was able to do the Multi-layered kekkai. She just found out that it was not a good technique for her because it makes her run out of enery too quickly. That doesn't mean she can't do it.

 

All kekkaishis have the power to do any Kekkai technique.

 

 

It never seemed to me that Toshimori "strained" to knock out his friends. Toshimori must have produced Kekkai before since Yoshi was not surprised that Toshi made a Kekkai.

 

Of course, I was not surprised either. I knew from episode 1 that Toshimori was a kekkaishi. His father mentioned him and Yoshi even offered his job to Toshi after Toshi was pro at reading the scrolls. Why would Yoshi do that if Toshi was incapable of producing a Kekkai.

 

That is why it blew me away that people actually went "OMG. Toshi made a kekkai for the first time. He does have powers after all. I thought he didn't." I was like "Really? :smileyindifferent:"

 

And yeah, Toshi owned Shion's goons. It makes sense that Toshi would be excited to cast Mestu for the first time. Even though he already knew how to make Kekkai, he wouldn't have anything to Metsu. What would he Metsu? The air?

 

I think Toshimori and Masamori have the power to easily rival Yoshimori. Well, I guess it depends whether or not he still has the great power he once had, since Chushinmaru is sealed up and whatnot.

 

That is another thing. Some people think that they might have lost their Kekkaishi powers. Once again, I was :smileyindifferent:.

 

I think all Kekkaishis have the power to rival each other and be of near equal strength to each other.

 

Since, the whole Legitimate Heir thing was a lie and uttherly meaningless for the most part.

 

Although, I wonder what "good first impression" meant. The families bring newborn babies to Karasumori and because of a spell, the babies get the Houin mark depending whether or not Chushimaru gets a first good impression.

 

But what does that mean? How do you get a good first impression on a baby? Was it just random technically? Was Chushinmaru in a bad mood during Masamori and Toshimori's turn and that was why they didn't get the Houin mark? Was Chushinmaru in a good mood and that was why Yoshi got the mark? Did the Houin mark depend on whether or not Chushinmaru even felt like seeing a baby?

 

Masamori does say that there was 2 Legitimate Heirs as brothers at one point. So, that does mean that it was actually possible for Toshimori and Masamori to have also obtained the Houin mark. It was possible for all 3 Sumimura brothers to have the Houin Mark.

 

And given how Legitimate Heirs even skipped multiple generations, Chushinmaru must have been in a bad mood often.

 

 

Phew!!! I wrote a lot. I just had to vent all these after months of harboring it in. Please try your best to comment on everything I said, Boborudnik. Alot of work went into this. :smileylol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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boborudnik
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to ritster21 - Message ID#: 63469111


ritster21 wrote:

 

Phew!!! I wrote a lot. I just had to vent all these after months of harboring it in. Please try your best to comment on everything I said, Boborudnik. Alot of work went into this. :smileylol:

 

 


otsukaresamade**noel**a, ritster       ***add note:  this stupid filtering wipes out one of the most common past tense endings in Japanese, poop-a, so to speak***

 

 

Masamori and Shigemori were both amazed that Yoshimori came up with the zekkai on his own, regardless of age and without even really reading the training scrolls.  I believe it was Masamori that attributed Yoshimori's massive power reserve for that achievement.  And it's true that Yoshi wasn't a negative person, perhaps one of the reasons that he received the houin.  And by having a formal name, i.e. zekkai, it was an established technique, and one that the founder was shown or mentioned several times, including by Kaguro, to have engaged it himself.  He did have plenty of reasons for negativity in his life, though, much of it perhaps of it due his own doing.  I have a feeling that "zekkai" is a bastardization of  "kekkai" (which is also used in many other shows for magical barriers), although my Japanese isn't good enough to make that inference definitive.

 

And probably so, every Kekkaishi could do any technique, if so trained.  In fact, Yoshimori's first successful "zekkai" was unusual in the sense that it didn't immediately anihilate everything else inside or anything touching it.  It could be a result of the "wild" way he developed it on his own, teachable only if he understood what he did, which is not a given.

 

 

I used "strained" in reference to that even only because I thought it seemed like Toshimori didn't have the confidence that he could truly control his own kekkai's.  He did it in that case in a sort of panicky lashing-out to keep his friends from rampaging through the house.  He did do well under pressure though to zap Shion's minons, but I would have to say that probably wasn't his first metsu, just his first in combat.  Ayakashi aren't the only thing to metsu - cockroaches could do as well, but don't do it in the house!  The bits would get everywhere!  At least, Tokine believes so.  But if metsu was an anihilation technique instead of merely a destruction one, tenketsu wouldn't be needed, so her fears are probably well founded.

 

 

As for every kekkaishi potentially being of equal strength, it could be like the difference between people being able to play sports.  Everyone can learn to play, and someone can get better with practice, but there's still an inherent talent component that allows one person to excel in a sport over another of lesser ability.

 

 

And it was funny that the competition between families and the houin was a hoax.  Yet another toy for Chushinmaru given to him by Tokimori - what a good dad!  But that process did produce Sumiko, and if you subscribe to the alternate offspring theory, then the middle child in Yoshimori would be the one to inherit the bulk of her own powers.  Yes, the houin was bestowed as a whim, and it certainly was possible that all three Sumimura's could have received it, but as the story was developed, there was a clear difference in the personalities of the children (with Toshimori's being the least developed).  Who knows, maybe a centuries-old spirit of a soul-draining child can read babies better than us, especially when it comes to who might be most interesting in the future.  And maybe he decided to only burn every third ant with his houin-bestowing magnifying glass to see how the others would react.

 

 

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ritster21
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

[ Edited ]

Reply to boborudnik - Message ID#: 63483031

Zekkai is the coolest attack. You just run through and obilerate anything. Although, I wonder if the Zekkai technique was included in the Legitimate Heir scrolls. Probably not, because if it was, Shigemori would have been pissed off that Masamori would have been able to do it. Since if it was a Legitimate Heir technique, Masamori should not have known about the attack.

 

 

That is what I liked about Kekkaishi. Every Kekkaishi has the power to rival each other.

 

Sure, in the beginning, Masamori could easily beat Yoshimori and Toshimori in a kekkai battle. But once they reach adulthood, it will be a much more even playing field. Kinda of like in real life. You might be 15 years old and be much stronger than your 10 year old brother. But once your 10 year old brother reaches adulthood, you won't be able to kick his butt anymore. Sure you might still be stronger but only by a little bit.

 

That is true. Toshimori could have metsu some training dummies or something. And yeah. Toshimori didn't have much confidence in his Kekkai skills. Poor kid. I think that is why he never trained earlier.

 

Look at it from his point of view. Your older brother is the Legitimate Heir and he will be the one to inherit all the Kekkaishi goodness. Toshimori can train and be a great Kekkaishi too, but it is pointless. He is not going to get be a Kekkaishi as a career. It would be better for him to focus on something that he would be allowed to do.

 

In a way, that happened with Sumiko. Sumiko trained all her life to be a great Kekkaishi. She became extremely powerful, maybe even more than the 21st Heads. I wouldn't be surprised if she was the strongest Kekkaishi. Anyway, because she is not the Legitimate Heir, she can't be a Kekkaishi as a career. Once Yoshimori was born, Shigemori probably told her "Ok, you don't have to be a Kekkaishi anymore. Retire and provide for your family." Because Sumiko trained all her life as a Kekkaishi, she never picked up any other skills. She never learned to cook, clean, or do anything else. All she knew was how to be a Kekkaishi.

 

In this sense, it is perfectly smart for Toshimori to take his time and train his Kekkai abilites in his own pace.

 

I do think of Kekkaishi like sports in a way. There are some soccer players that are better than other soccer players just because. There is no real reason. They are just better. Kinda like Tokiko and Shigemori. Masamori said that Tokiko was the most powerful Kekkaishi during the 21st Head generation. He never gave a reason. So, I assume that Tokiko is a better Kekkaishi than Shigemori just because. There is no hidden underlying secret why she is better. Tokiko just is better than Shigemori. Simple as that.

 

But I don't think Tokiko is better in the sense that She would easily defeat Shigemori in a Kekkai battle. She would eventually win, I suppose, but it would be a close match.

 

Come to think of it, we never saw Kekkaishis fight other Kekkaishis. How would Kekkaishis duke it out? They can't Metsu each other. That would be one shot, dead into a million pieces. The battles are probably some sort of tests. First Kekkaishi to Metsu this ayakashi wins. First Kekkaishi to catch the ayakashi without performing Metsu wins. Test of skills, I suppose.

 

Tokimori did say that there used to be other families. Sumimuras make blue Kekkai. Yukimuras make green Kekkai. Could there have been other families that made Red Kekkai? Maybe Yellow, Orange, Purple, Pink, Brown Kekkai?

 

There would have also been more Legitimate Heirs back then. Sumimuras have the Houin Mark on the right hand. Yukimuras on the left boob for girls and pec for guys. Where would the Houin Mark go on the other families? The leg? The Eye, the tongue. the back, the shoulder, the stomach?

 

Chushinmaru must have been able to see into the future of the babies. At the end of the day, it seemed that the Houin Mark appeared on people who would be the most "fun" for Chushinmaru. Yoshimori's recklessness, huge power, and fighting spirit were cool and fun. I guess Chushinmaru saw that Masamori and Toshimori would be boring or something. Same thing with Sumiko and Tokio.

 

I kinda wish Toshimori had a bigger role. I would have understood if he didn't have any powers, but he did. Toshimori could have done more. But then, I suppose that would have made him a 3rd wheel. Toshi could have gone to Karasumori with Yoshi and Tokine, but he would have been useless. Even if he did train until he was 9, he still would have been weaker than Yoshi and Tokine. He would have needed rescueing all the time. He might have become the Scrappy Doo. Toshi going to fight somebody, but then Yoshi holding him back and saying the monster is too strong. Toshi would have probably gotten in the way of the YoshixTokine moments. I suppose that is why Yellow Tanabe never made Toshi go with Yoshi and Tokine. He would have just been in the way.

 

Still, he could have done something a little more. Maybe, the house got attacked even worse than when Shion's goons attacked. Maybe Shigemori gets knocked out by surprise or he was away somewhere. Toshi could have had a cool little battle to protect his dad and possibly Tokine's mom.

 

That would have been cool to see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

T.O.M. v2
boborudnik
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to ritster21 - Message ID#: 63484647

Tokine is the most efficient kekkai user out of all of them.    She makes up for being the weakest one out of all of them by diligent training and using what power she has judiciously.  It's hard to say how Toshimori compares to her, though, since he's immature in technique and perhaps doesn't use whatever power he has to the fullest.

 

And perhaps the Kekkaishi families that no longer exist were spread out in the field in little bits after a family vs. family duel :smileywink:

 

 

Without Chushinmaru occupying the castle under Karasumori, there's no need for Kekkaishi...Toshimori can go about his merry kid-ly way and mess with his friends using kekkai's  :smileyvery-happy: , never having to use his power for serious purposes.

 

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ritster21
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to boborudnik - Message ID#: 63496963

Do you think Sumiko is a more powerful Kekkaishi than Tokiko and Shigemori?

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boborudnik
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to ritster21 - Message ID#: 63498445

Tokimori said he recognized Sumiko's power as being special when he met her. That could mean a combination of power and grace that usually seems to be exclusive to each other. That is, the ones with power rely on overpowering, and the ones with less need more skillful usage in order to be effective. She also managed to find him at all, which could mean she penetrated the deception of the false legends to figure out the truth of the situation.
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ritster21
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to boborudnik - Message ID#: 63498779

True. That and the fact that Sumiko's one shikigami had 1/7 of her power and memories.

 

Yoshimori pretty much said that that 1/7 power dwarfed his.

 

I actually do think Sumiko was the most powerful Kekkaishi.

 

One thing that is a mystery to me is Tokine's dad, Tokio.

 

Yomi mentions that he was too weak and gentle to be a Kekkaishi. But was he really, in a sense, weak? I just think Yomi always thought he patronized her. Tokio didn't even die because he was too weak. He died because he got distracted with the visions of Tokine getting hurt.

 

I wish we got more of a gage of his power. I often wonder how Tokio compares to Yoshimori, Masamori, and Tokine. I know he would be weaker than Shigemori, Tokiko, and Sumiko.

 

To me, these are the "power levels" of the Kekkaishi without Tokio.

 

1.Sumiko

2.Tokiko

3.Shigemori

4.Masamori

5.Yoshimori

6.Tokine

7.Toshimori

 

Wow, didn't realize that our heroes of the story are near the bottom of the list.

 

Anyway, what is your opinion? Where should Tokio be on my list? Where would he be on your list?

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boborudnik
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to ritster21 - Message ID#: 63498969

Yeah, Sumiko pretty much tops the list in both power and skill.  And it should be no surprise about who's at the bottom of the list, the experience of the top of the list is overwhelming.  In terms of overall power, I think Shigemori should be ranked well above Tokiko, but he is/was perhaps as impetuous as Yoshimori.  Potentially, Yoshimori might have more sheer power than Shigemori, but doesn't have the same experience to temper it.

 

So my overall rank list is

 

1. Sumiko (1/1)

2. Shigemori (3/3)

3. Tokiko (5/2)

4. Masamori (4/4)

5. Yoshimori (2/6)

6. Tokine  (6/5)

7. Toshimori (7/7)

 

The numbers in parentheses are (power rank/skill rank).

 

I wanted to give Tokine a higher skill rank, but she doesn't have as broad a technique selection as Masamori.  And I still gave Masamori the edge for experience, even though even he states that Yoshimori has surpassed him.  I would also say Yoshimori started as the #6 overall at the beginning of the story before moving up as the story progressed.

 

It was hard to gauge Tokio, since his appearance was so brief, but I did get the feeling that he was relatively weak in power (seems to be a Yukimura trait) but also skilled as the rest of the family.  It could also well be due to Tokiko's training.  And perhaps Yomi took his soft-spoken demeanor as weakness, and it was confirmed in her eyes by his subsequent demise.  If I were to insert him into the overall list, I'd probably put him right after Masamori.

 

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ritster21
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

[ Edited ]

Reply to boborudnik - Message ID#: 63502759

Yeah. Our list is pretty similar, so that is good. Although, I rememeber that Masamori said Tokiko was a stronger Kekkaishi than Shigemori. I also rememeber that Tokiko was the one who had to control Yoshi's power during the 4 man Kekkai. Tokiko also lost control a lot of the times apparently, and she made worm holes and jumped into them and disappeared. Shigemori had to fix them and calm her down. I think Tokiko was the "Yoshi" of her time although with more skill, and Shigemori was the "Tokine" of the group but with more power. But it doesn't really matter. Point is that the 21st heads are Number 2 and 3.

 

Yeah, the story always made sure to highlight Tokine's amazing skills. But technically, Tokine's skills was always compared to Yoshimori's skills. When Masamori first debuted, it was obvious he was more skilled than Tokine. That is pretty much funny. Tokine is very skilled, but there are 4 people better than her. It makes sense though. Masamori, the 21st heads, and Sumiko have way more experience.

 

This is the first story I read where the main heroes are nowhere near the strongest. Heck, Yoshi and Tokine are only better than 9 year old Toshimori. That is just 1 person.

 

Yeah, that is what I figured. I did think it was because of Tokio's soft-spoken demeanor. There is no way Tokio was bad at being a Kekkaishi.

 

So with Tokio, it would be this.

 

1. Sumiko

2. Tokiko

3. Shigemori

4. Masamori

5. Tokio

6. Yoshimori

7. Tokine

8. Toshimori

 

Yeah, I can go with that. Tokio vs Masamori would be a cool match to see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

T.O.M. v2
boborudnik
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to ritster21 - Message ID#: 63503929


ritster21 wrote:

This is the first story I read where the main heroes are nowhere near the strongest. Heck, Yoshi and Tokine are only better than 9 year old Toshimori. That is just 1 person.

 


Tsuyoku naritai - "I want to become strong"

If you listen carefully to the opening songs of many anime, including the Kekkaishi and FMA:B ones (the ones I'd wager that the songs were composed in particular for the series - for example, they mention ayakashi in the full opening of Kekkaishi.  Bleach tends to use current pop music in the openings and closings.), you'll hear this phrase.  But in order to be stronger, you can't be all that strong to being with, haha.  Yoshimori and Tokine do seem particularly weak in relation to other shounen protagonists, although each has strong potential.  What would their offspring be like?  And would Uncle Toshimori be a match for them by then :smileyhappy: ?

 

 

We also haven't even been considering Tokimori in the ranks.  He's the original kekkaishi after all, and still quite powerful despite being on the downslope.  I think Sumiko is stronger in terms of raw power than him at his peak, even though I'm sure the centuries have made him a wily bastard.

 

 

 

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ritster21
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

[ Edited ]

Reply to boborudnik - Message ID#: 63515277

I think they only seem weak because it is more of a realistic show in terms of pain.

 

If Yoshi or Tokine were to get stabbed or physically attacked, they would get extremely hurt. Throughout the series, Yoshi never ever got punched, energy blasted at, or other things like that. Because if he did, he would die.

 

BUT, I actually think that the Kekkai technique is one of the most powerful moves I have ever seen.

 

I can see Yoshimori killing Goku by Metsu and Shinkai.

 

I can see Masamori Zekkaing Vegeta.

 

I can see Tokine Kekkai spearing Krillin.

 

Yoshimori and Tokine would make beautiful children. Yoshimori was adorable when he was 5,7,9 years, and he even looked like Toshimori at that same age. I liked how Yellow Tanabe actually took the time to make the brothers look similar to each other at similar ages like in real life. Yoshimori at 9 years old looks like 9 year old Toshimori.

 

I am sure Uncle Toshimori would be stronger than his future nephews and nieces. If not, then I would :smileysad:

 

That is another thing. Does Yoshimori have cousins? Did Sumiko have any brothers or sisters?

 

We know Tokiko had a brother. He would be Tokine's Granduncle. Did he have kids? If he did, then those kids would be 1st cousins to Tokine's dad, Tokio. And if those kids had kids, then Tokine should have 2nd cousins that are Kekkaishis.

 

Well, Tokimori did say he was to weak to even cast a Kekkai. Although, at his prime, I don't know. He would definetly have to had been a pro. He was able to perform Shinkai. Although, I don't remember if the reason Chushinmaru was not sealed properly was because Tokimori was not strong enough or he did it wrong via not sealing himself inside.

 

Yeah, I think Sumiko was stronger. I think the only reason she did not perform Shinkai  was because of the whole connection to Chushinmaru thing. Yeah, they could have sealed him up by force. He looks like he is 5, so he shouldn't be that strong. Heck, Toshimori should be able to easily pin Chushinmaru down with his 9/10 year old strength.

 

But, Tokimori wanted Chushinmaru happy and for him to be sealed up in his own terms. Somebody to understand Chushinmaru's feelings. That person was Yoshimori.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

T.O.M. v2
boborudnik
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to ritster21 - Message ID#: 63518609

Was there ever any other mention of Tokiko's brother other than the initial one at the first entry into Uro-sama's realm? It wonder if he was a weakling as well, relatively speaking, like Tokine's dad.

Tokimori was probably too emotionally colored to properly do anything when it came to Chushinmaru, especially if it was to lock him up for an eternity, even for the good of mankind. When Sumiko came along, though, it was like all his decisions made centuries ago became validated, even if it was a happenstance occurrence. Sumiko not only need to be strong enough, she had to care enough to penetrate the secrets of Karasumori. If those things didn't happen when they did, it might have meant the re-emergence of Chushinmaru into the world.

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ritster21
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Re: Toshimori and Masamori

Reply to boborudnik - Message ID#: 63760401

Nope. Tokiko's older brother was only mentioned once which was with Lord Uro.

 

I don't think he was weak. Tokiko said that if her brother was not sick in bed, He would have sent Shigemori home.

 

Tokimori did seem very sad when he asked Lord Uro to give him his land.

 

But yeah. At the very least, Tokine should have Uncle Cousins, Aunt Cousins, and 2nd cousins somewhere that are Kekkaishis as well. Unless, Tokiko's brother never had children.

 

If you were a Kekkaishi, what color Kekkai would you want to cast? I would personally cast Red ones.