Rants

[_Star_Wolf_]

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Pay_No_Attention wrote:

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Glodson wrote:
That was absolutely well said. Like you, my gender and my biological sex match, so I do not completely understand what it is like to be transgendered. However, what you wrote was excellent. I really don't think I can praise it enough.

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Gender is an arbitrary social construct, though, that is different across different societies, cultures and eras. We live in the era of existentialism, nihilism, post-modernism, we construct our own meaning, our own values, we're not shackled to traditional gender roles or value (which, were never, ever consistent, ever). We can choose what roles we fill, what traits and values we practice, everything about gender is open to our choice and whims, the only part of gender we can't control is how external sources judge and label us and our behavior, but that's the case for everyone on everything.

Hell, I don't "feel" my gender in a way which conforms to society's standards of what a male should be. Society says i should be a sports-obssessed, car-obssessed, ####-obssessed thoughtless #### who can only show positive or aggressive emotions (and my aggressive emotions must be socially acceptable) and who voluntarily chooses to take on the responsibilities of others for myself to prove to everyone that I'm a realy adult man and not a little boy or girly-man. But hey, i said fuuuuuudge it, and redefined what it means for me to be a man and to really say fuuuuuudge it in regards to gender and focus more on being an individual person beyond labels, whose identity is defined by my own beliefs and values and actions and not by dressing myself up in a costume and defining myself as whatever society calls my costume.

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You're referring to traditional gender roles. You do not appear to understand the difference between that and the natural feelings/behavior/etc. of males and females. The latter is what applies to transexuals. It has nothing to do with "I'm a guy and I don't like sports, OMG I MUST BE A GIRL" It has everything to do with them not feeling right in their body, regardless of their interests.

Males and females exist, deal with it.

Some males feel female, and it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles. Educate yourself.

Some females feel male, and it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles. Educate yourself.

Physical sex=/=gender roles.

Learn a thing or two about the subject before you come into a thread acting like an ass.

[Pay_No_Attention]

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_Star_Wolf_ wrote:

Males and females exist, deal with it.

Some males feel female, and it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles. Educate yourself.

Some females feel male, and it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles. Educate yourself.

Physical sex=/=gender roles.

Learn a thing or two about the subject before you come into a thread acting like an ass.

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Yeah, males and females exist: males are those with XY sex chromosomes, females are those with XX sex chromosomes. There is no feeling that, you don't feel that chromosomes are of a certain configuration, that's like saying, "Well, I was born with brown eyes, but I feel like a blue-eyed person." It's ridiculous.

So, this maleness or femaleness the trans-person supposedly feel is entirely social coonstructed gender roles. Which hey, guess what, gender roles and traits change over time. It's all about what society defines as masculine and what society defines as feminine, which, changes over time and place, so what are held as maqsculine values now are radically different than masculine values and roles of centuries ago (which many today would consider highly effete maleness). This subjective feeling of maleness and femaleness, doesn't mean anything, because other than sticking your hands down your pants and feeling a #### instead of a ####, there is no feeling female that isn't subjective and arbitrary.

This whole tranny, "I feel female" #### always boils down to wanting to wear female clothes and act in stereotypical feminine ways so society will give them the label they think will change their lives. It's all superficial and all about how others will view and label the person.

[Pay_No_Attention]

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_Star_Wolf_ wrote:

Actually the suicide rate is so high because of people like you, mixed with the depression that already comes with getting the wrong chromosome. Also where are you getting the "lack of an identity and personality" from? Because they obviously have one.

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If you have XY chromosomes, you're a male. Wrong chromosomes, wtf? You can't have the wrong chromosomes, you have the chromosomes that you have and they express themselves they way they're supposed. If you were "meant to be" (pssh, what a ridiculous concept) a female you would be born with XX sex chromosomes.

And as for the whole, MALE AND FEMALE BRAINS ARE DIFFERENT. Yeah, not all that different, the difference really lies in a slightly different chemical balance due to slightly different hormonal makeups, and, if you're an XX you're not going to have an XY hormonal makeup or vice versa without outside intervention.

And then we come down to maleness or femaleness in regards to gender as opposed to sex. What constitutes maleness or femaless is rather arbitrary and ever-shifting across societies and time periods. There is nothing which doesn't boil down to biological sex differences that can be said to be universally male or universally female behavior or values or ways of thinking.

And the depresion is so high because these are psychologically volatile people who take hormones their physiology weren't developed to handle and then mutilate themselves and when all is said and done, they still have that hole in their psyche that needs filling, because hey they still don't have a real identity, all they went through didn't magically make them feel whole like they assumed it would.

Plenty of my behaviors and thought patterns aren't "male" or "masculine" as contemporary society defines it, most of the time I feel pretty gender neutral, but I don't feel compelled to surgically and biochemically transform myself into an androgen, because that would be #### insane. I feel like me, to hell with male or female or any other labels that externals place on me, I feel and behave the way I feel and behave, and since I am a male, it is defacto that the way I feel is a male way to feel. Just like the transexual with XY chromosomes who "feels female", no, you don't, the way you feel is a male way to feel because you are a male, may not be the way the stereotypical male behaves and feels, but you have XY chromosomes, so you are a male.

I love that for everybody else on the planet, we're told to accept ourselves for the way we are, love ourselves for our unique configuration, that's the healthy thing to do, dont' go and alter yourself to get a certain response from society, that's not healthy. Except this one group of people, you guys go ahead and mutilate yourselves in some quioxtic pursuit to get society to acknowledge you a certain way, instead of accepting yourselves as you are, that's the healthy thing.

[itsacoaster]

I really don't buy the labels argument. If someone as young as 4 or 5 doesn't think they belong in his or her own body, I don't think they've really taken the opportunity to ponder which label they'd prefer. And really, those who choose to change their appearance (sometimes even surgically) are not actually choosing an opposite sex label, because being transgendered gives you a totally different social label from either sex, and that label is not viewed positively by most segments of society. That's the social label they choose. So I don't really buy that these folks are completely irrational, expecting to be viewed as the opposite sex when they are actually viewed as something else entirely. It's easier for me to believe that they choose to do what they do to feel more of a fit in their own bodies.

I found myself struggling with the same kind of stuff you're talking about. Plenty of girls do masculine-seeming things and yet are happy being female, and the same goes for males. And this goes back to what I said earlier: it is very difficult to understand what it might be like to reject your physical sex. I will never really understand. But at some point I have to just take their word for it, that they believe that they should be a different sex from what they are, instead of assuming they must be mentally ill because they don't accept the body they are born with.

[EvilsergE]

I don't think it's about "not being able to accept the body you were born with'. Like the person above said, there are roles, roles of a female and male. Anyone can play any role. Find a person who will see you in that role. If the person is unhappy with his/her body because of reasons like being too fat, or not liking their big forehead, or their hair is stupid, or their feet are too big so on and so forth, even after surgical involvement those things will remain. They think their bodies don't allow them to express who they are, thus changing the body will fix that. Well it won't. It's all in your head.

[itsacoaster]

Your post sort of illustrates my point. Some men do feminine things and some women do masculine things but they are perfectly content with the gonads they are born with. And that's fine, that's their prerogative. But for some people, that's not fine, and instead of trying to understand what they're feeling, or even understanding some of the science behind it, there's a tendency to think "it's all in their head" or "they're mentally ill" as convenient ways to avoid grappling with the fact that yes, there are people who feel this way.

[_Star_Wolf_]

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Pay_No_Attention wrote:

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_Star_Wolf_ wrote:

Males and females exist, deal with it.

Some males feel female, and it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles. Educate yourself.

Some females feel male, and it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles. Educate yourself.

Physical sex=/=gender roles.

Learn a thing or two about the subject before you come into a thread acting like an ass.

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Yeah, males and females exist: males are those with XY sex chromosomes, females are those with XX sex chromosomes. There is no feeling that, you don't feel that chromosomes are of a certain configuration, that's like saying, "Well, I was born with brown eyes, but I feel like a blue-eyed person." It's ridiculous.

So, this maleness or femaleness the trans-person supposedly feel is entirely social coonstructed gender roles. Which hey, guess what, gender roles and traits change over time. It's all about what society defines as masculine and what society defines as feminine, which, changes over time and place, so what are held as maqsculine values now are radically different than masculine values and roles of centuries ago (which many today would consider highly effete maleness). This subjective feeling of maleness and femaleness, doesn't mean anything, because other than sticking your hands down your pants and feeling a #### instead of a ####, there is no feeling female that isn't subjective and arbitrary.

This whole tranny, "I feel female" #### always boils down to wanting to wear female clothes and act in stereotypical feminine ways so society will give them the label they think will change their lives. It's all superficial and all about how others will view and label the person.

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No it doesn't. Stop speaking like you have any experience on the matter.

This has nothing to do with gender roles, how is this hard to comprehend?

Is it really that hard?

Do you really not understand that the brains of males and females work differently, and that regardless of the roles society gives them they do naturally behave differently? Because honestly, it's a very simple concept and it seems to be flying over your head.

[_Star_Wolf_]

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EvilsergE wrote:
I don't think it's about "not being able to accept the body you were born with'. Like the person above said, there are roles, roles of a female and male. Anyone can play any role. Find a person who will see you in that role. If the person is unhappy with his/her body because of reasons like being too fat, or not liking their big forehead, or their hair is stupid, or their feet are too big so on and so forth, even after surgical involvement those things will remain. They think their bodies don't allow them to express who they are, thus changing the body will fix that. Well it won't.

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And this is a very easy opinion to share without coming in here and acting like a wannabe troll the way you did earlier.

The only reason it doesn't is because they'll never be genetic, but at least something exists. It's not really about this.

[klinkinparkfan]

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Kneon_Knight wrote:

Just what the fuuuuuudge are you talking about?  State a cause, get on the soapbox then ####.

-10/10 for epic fail to state a cause.

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Um, who the fuuuuuudge are you?

[klinkinparkfan]

Nice alt idiot.

Educate yourself before stating a novel on a topic you know nothing about.

[empty_cookie_jar]

Please die in a fire.

[scrapyard]

did u know bout the fashionista andrej pejac or whtvrt his name is

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/46332627/ns/today-style/#.TzRKFOS7P
40

walkn the runways as a woman

say'n #### that zarf/zoe would say!

"Love has no boundaries," he says.

THAS STUFF ZOE WOLD SAY

andrej tol copoy'n offa al my children

anyways

ITS CRAZY designers have finaly put a dude in a dress

7sent him on his way

[GaiusIuliusCesar]

useless sacks of organic compounds, they'd be more useful as fuel in a biomass generator.

You can try to get them to come around, but their imaginary friend, (god) told them that men are men, women are women, and sex outside of missionary and marriage is evil.

Almost makes you wish those same people were right about the government trying to sterilize them with chem trails... if it was up to me, we would be doing that. Though I'd put the stuff directly into fried crap that they eat.

Ever notice that most homophobes are fat, old, ugly old people, either with no hair, or far far too much facial hair? Personally, I think they are just jealous of the sex.

[klinkinparkfan]

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GaiusIuliusCesar wrote:
useless sacks of organic compounds, they'd be more useful as fuel in a biomass generator.

You can try to get them to come around, but their imaginary friend, (god) told them that men are men, women are women, and sex outside of missionary and marriage is evil.

Almost makes you wish those same people were right about the government trying to sterilize them with chem trails... if it was up to me, we would be doing that. Though I'd put the stuff directly into fried crap that they eat.

Ever notice that most homophobes are fat, old, ugly old people, either with no hair, or far far too much facial hair? Personally, I think they are just jealous of the sex.

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YES. I have noticed that.

Eventually, people will be forced to come around because the number of LGBTQ people in the world will even out with the number of "normal" people or straight people and then things will HAVE to mesh together well, otherwise...Bad things will happen.

Not just to the LGBTQ groups but also to their friends and family and to the homophobic psychotics.

I like allies, like you, because while you're not suffering through any of this, you always have our back.

Which is extremely nice and comforting. <3

[GaiusIuliusCesar]

As Benjamin Franklin once said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately"

But its more than just self interest, solidarity is important and I like you and yours, far far more than I like any of the people that stand against you. The fact that those same people despise me, godless heathen that I am, only reinforces the point.

I'm trying to avoid the cliche of "well some of my best friends are gay" since even if that were not true, my opinions would be the same. After all I don't know anyone from Athens but I'm with them in their struggle against European austerity.

[40_feet_below]

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Pay_No_Attention wrote:

Mutilating yourself and taking hormones your body didn't devlop to naturally produce because you have no identity beyond external labels is a form of mental illness. You're like those whiny pathetic little losers who are all "IF ONLY I HAD A GIRLFRIEND, MY LIFE WOULD BE BETTER," "IF ONLY I HAD THIS, MY LIFE WOULD BE BETTER," "IF ONLY I HAD THAT." The reason suicide and depression rates among post-op trans is so high is because, they get it done and realize, "Well, here I've mutilated myself, and still I feel empty, still I lack an identity and personality, and now I get to face social ostracization too!"

Here's an idea, construct your own identity and personality and quit having your entire identity hanging on what externals label you as. NO, HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST SOMETHING REASONABLE! YOU'RE PHOBIC AND INTOLERANT!

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I'm pretty glad this garbage post got shouted down as quickly as it did. Sons, I am impress.

[desantoos]

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Pay_No_Attention wrote:

I love that for everybody else on the planet, we're told to accept ourselves for the way we are, love ourselves for our unique configuration, that's the healthy thing to do, dont' go and alter yourself to get a certain response from society, that's not healthy. Except this one group of people, you guys go ahead and mutilate yourselves in some quioxtic pursuit to get society to acknowledge you a certain way, instead of accepting yourselves as you are, that's the healthy thing.

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Ooh! I know this logical fallacy! It's an equivocation. See, you are changing the definition of "who you are" from what it typically means (your own psychological identity) to something new (your physical contruct) and then arguing based upon that definition.

[ramo200]

The only trans person I accept is Gren because heshe plays a mean saxamophone.

[TrigunBebop]

There are some people in this thread that could stand to learn something from this.

[YoAsianPeopleHateMe]

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Ayria wrote:
YOU LOOK LIKE A GIRL BUT REFER TO YOURSELF AS A GUY!

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? I'M SO ANGRY AND CONFUSED AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DIRECT MY ANGER!

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Ahahahahahahahaa

[Real_AirCooledMan]

With their fuuuuuudgeed-up, bigoted views, Hitler would be proud.

But know this: If that conservative #### Rick Santorum gets elected, I'm moving to Canada.

[Pay_No_Attention]

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itsacoaster wrote:
But at some point I have to just take their word for it, that they believe that they should be a different sex from what they are, instead of assuming they must be mentally ill because they don't accept the body they are born with.

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OK. Let me put it this way. The prevailing view is that people are born gay or straight or what have you: say someone born gay felt that they were really a straight person born with a gay body and mind; say this person could have an operation and take hormones to make them straight.

Or another example: a black person, or a non-white person, feels they're really a white person born in the body of a non-white and they want to undergo surgery to become white.

Now, both of these examples have real world analogs, which I've discussed with people of the same ideological bent as those who've vehemently disagreed with me over my views on transexualism; those people would say and have said that people like those in my two examples are self-hating, clearly have emotional and psychology problems, are victims of this that and the other, and to perform such procedures would be wholly unethical.

And for further examples I submit for your approval the cases of furries and otherkin. Furries being people convinced they're truly animals born in human bodies, and otherkin being people who truly believe they are a fictional character or species born in the body of a normal human.

What all these have in common are people who are trying to escape and deny the identities they were born with, not people who were mistakenly born in the wrong bodies. I mean, wtf, such archaic philosophy we're employing here, as if some deity on high had sneezed and dropped a female essence into a male substance. In all the other cases I brought up, we would correctly address the psychological and emotional issues at hand and try to get the person to learn to accept themselves for who and what they are, not encourage them to deny physical reality and engage in mutilation to annhilate the identity they were born with. But since transexuality kinda squick us out and is kinda similar to homosexuality and makes us question our tolerance levela, we go "Sure, go crazy fella or ma'am or whatever you wanna be called!"

[Pay_No_Attention]

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desantoos wrote:

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Pay_No_Attention wrote:

I love that for everybody else on the planet, we're told to accept ourselves for the way we are, love ourselves for our unique configuration, that's the healthy thing to do, dont' go and alter yourself to get a certain response from society, that's not healthy. Except this one group of people, you guys go ahead and mutilate yourselves in some quioxtic pursuit to get society to acknowledge you a certain way, instead of accepting yourselves as you are, that's the healthy thing.

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Ooh! I know this logical fallacy! It's an equivocation. See, you are changing the definition of "who you are" from what it typically means (your own psychological identity) to something new (your physical contruct) and then arguing based upon that definition.

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You're enganging in the fallacy of assuming mind/body duality is anything other than an academic construct. The psychological and physiological systems are not seperate entities, but one inseperable system. I'm using who you are in both a physical and psychological sense. And when the psyche rejects physical reality, we tend to label that as mental illness.

[3030win]

I'm a male hetero (born that way).I always liked all types of motorized conveyances, hunting, fishing, chasing tail and I'm a gun nut. I dress in what one might call "butch" style.I speak and carry myself in a somewhat agressive manner. Although I don't like fighting, I seldom back down from one.

I also prefer cats to dogs (but have and love both). I cry when I'm sad and hibernate when I'm depressed. I love my family and am faithful to my wife.

Complements from gay people, no matter how suggestive, have been appreciated. I have never cared about a person's sexual orientation. I don't care if someone questions my sexuality- I may take on a full-blown gay persona if I think it will annoy them.

I don't care for bigots. I have been known to go totally redneck on some of them.

I am who I am and expect the same from everyone around me. I'll even tolerate bigotry as long as it is not acted upon or used to insult someone.

[desantoos]

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Pay_No_Attention wrote:

The psychological and physiological systems are not seperate entities, but one inseperable system.

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There are connections between the two, but for the sake of this argument it's not important. You'd have to get down to the genetic make up in order to get things to connect and when you get there the argument yet again is not in your favor.

And I am not wrong on my identification. When people say "accept ourselves for who we are" they are talking about the inner person, the psychological state. Kind of like when people say they love someone for who they are. They aren't talking about what they look like but their personality and behaviour. You miss this critical difference.