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Pumpkin Guts
R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks
Posts: 1,463
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'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

[ Edited ]

"Humans who lose the capacity to think become creatures whose existance has no value. Think! you humans who are split into two worlds. Unless you want that gulf between humans to expand into oblivian. You must think!" -Schwarzwald

Just a reminder, this is a spoiler free thread. Please respect the people who are still new to the show.

I had a hard time picking a quote for this act. Between act 15 and the exposive act 20-6 story arch I tend to glaze over this episode when analyzing the various archs but there's a lot of good stuff in here; nice Swartzy monologues, Roger searching for the truth, Alan Gabriel sexually charged power plays, the Leviathan's mysterious attraction to Dorothy, Alex playing up his god-complex, and Dastun's frustration with all the corporate beuracracy in the Paradigm Company. Fantastic character work, but there's nothing that really it all these things together. The leviathan is at the very least a poor attempt to connect these things but doesn't do a very good job of it. All the little character micro-plots are tied into the Leviathan but there's so many of them it's easy to loose track of them. Had Konaka been allowed to do the show the way he wanted the things we saw in this episode would probably have been spread acroos several episodes instead of clumped together like this.

I really love the Big O dub, it's the best I've seen. There are animes I just won't watch the dubb of if I can help it but everything about Big O's rocks. It occured to me while watching this episode that the reason the translation is so close to the original is probably because the dubbers only occasionally have to deal with lip flap. For example in the scene underground where Roger and Alex are going at it the camera is just wondering around on it's own accord, checking out the area. Even when the characters are shown often their mouths are not in the shot. But there are about three times in the series when the dubb makes me cringe. This episode has one of them. Alex's line 'It represents a symbol' makes me wince everytime. Represents a symbol? Maybe it's three years of heavy english and creative writing training but that's just painful. Even the sub says 'It's a symbol'. Ow, it burns!

Anywho! On a less painful subject. Did any one else think it was funny that there was a '4' above F- ::is gagged by Zopwx2 and ParadigmDog:: heh heh, I mean the white meagdeus? Those crazy animators! Did you notice the older Angel, Norman, Dorothy, and bum Roger? ^_^

Our next episode is act 18. Yea! It's 'The Greatest Villian'! Yea! It guest stars B- ::is gagged by Zopwx2 and ParadigmDog:: Eh heh ^_^; It's a hilarious episode. Somebody should be shot for the way Dorothy is drawn :smileymad: but it's a great little piece :smileyvery-happy: so I don't mind so much. Can't say as much for act 19 :smileymad: but Dorothy's going to be absolutely gorgeous from act 20 on :smileyvery-happy: so I'm okay.

 

-Dork

 

 

 

Message Edited by Dorks_wuv_Geeks on 02-16-2005 12:49 AM

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394

Too much reading!!!
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394

It's raining propoganda!
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NoThiNGFaC3
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394

So how many episode is BigO again?

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394

You think the guy whould get a fine for littering the city.:smileyvery-happy:

Even though i seen this episode a few times,  what does he mean by "humans who split into two worlds"?

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Jiyosefu_110 - Message ID#: 11960511



Jiyosefu_110 wrote:

Even though i seen this episode a few times,  what does he mean by "humans who split into two worlds"?


I think it refers to the class structure (Domes vs. Outside Domes) on the surface level meaning...however, in the context of the entire series might have deeper meanings, but that'd be a spoiler.


 

 
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.ParadigmDog - Message ID#: 11961467

I've always seen the split as more of between the past and present. The less they think, the further they grow away from the world that once was.
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to NoThiNGFaC3 - Message ID#: 11960436



NoThiNGFaC3 wrote:
So how many episode is BigO again?


Currently 26 episodes long (though the rest of the series has yet to be produced due to money issues...it's currently in limbo).

---

Anyways, my comments on this episode #17:

Some of the best collection of lines and scenes in  all of BIG-O. This episode is moving up on my favs list...and it totally make me feel WE NEED SEASON 3!!!

Schwarzwald's philosophical thoughts are beautiful and make you love the guy even more. He is just cool in the craziest of ways. He touts how he's closest to the "truth" amidst all the growing chaos, gotta love it. "Wake up!" I think that's a valuable lesson even outside of Paradigm City in the times we all live in today. Preach it, Schwarz...

The way the flashbacks meld with the scenes is great, giving context to everything that's going on. I noticed that they showed Schwarzwald in the ruins of JFK (previously untold) and then did the flashback of the BIG DUO fight. It's showing us chronilogical order Tarintino-style. Schwarz running around excitedly pretending to be a plane is priceless.

Dorothy and Instro's interaction is great. Instro's comments about church are very interesting. 'Lately a lot more people have been going to church. They sing as if to try and escape some fate.'--that was the gist of it anyways.

Getting back to flashbacks, The Underground Terror connections are awesome. And Dorothy does her mumbo-jumbo talk again as the Leviathan #17 comes after her memories.

Roger's confrontation with the Paradigm execs is always enjoyable "I'm not a bounty hunter" lol.

The writers were just doing a fantastic job--everything in this episode was sussinct which Roger going back to Seebach's torched place. I love it when Roger gets angry at Schwarzwald in the tunnel and crumples up the paper...plus the music there is brilliently positioned.

Dastan and Roger share some good words early on; and Dastan's later explicative upon the PC's lacking orders is very enjoyable.

Alex and Roger's interaction, again, alone make this episode worth watching. The dialoague is a battle of personalities and wits. And then when Alan gets involved and he and Roger almost finish each other off--terrific material. "Alan, don't be vulger" lol

The Leviathan itself with its melting hands moves makes it very curious. It's position in the BIG-O story is still a bit of a puzzle to say the least.

The art in this episode is exceptionally well done--the leaflets, the church, and the reflections of Dastan and Roger in the cart just to name a few standout moments.

Angel's final words are still a little confusing. I think it means Schwarzwald died wandering in the desert after the fight in DUO, but that his agents passed out the leaflets...still, Schwarzwald's truth remains very ambiguous.

Dork: wow, you seem to take Zopwx2 and me to be hot-headed. lol. You didn't give anything away, you were just throwing out bait...still, for shame! lol. I wondered about that "4", yes. Its placement was amusing. peace.

Sorry these thoughts are jumbled and sloppy, I'm tired. 'night

BRING ON BIG-O SEASON 3! WE NEED THE REST OF THE EPISODES! THIS SHOW ROCKS!

 

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Laughing Clown
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394

Great episode, some of my favorite quotes, and the last time we see Schwarzwald (well, sort of). A lot of connections with episode 4. Our first glimpse of Big Fau and that Leviathan was most likely another Megadeus archetype.
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KackiJack
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.ParadigmDog - Message ID#: 11961889

Initially, I beleived that the Leviathan in this episode was made with parts from the Big Achetype that Roger destroyed in his first battle with Swartzwald. It does sort of resemble it, but then something else occured to me. Perhaps the Leviathan is the archtype of the giant energy producing monster from Episode 3 Electric City. This belief has led me to a new theory about the Leviathans which I shall try to remember until ep. 22 when I can tell more without spoilers.

ps. Really looking forward to tomorrow's episode. Dorothy has been sidelined for too long.
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394

The ending of this episode is weird, with Angel telling that Swartzwald has apparently been dead for a while. I don't really believe her, since it is difficult to believe a major character can die off screen (like Clarrise, the girl who was supposedly run over in Fahrenheit 451).
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to KackiJack - Message ID#: 11963267

A good character episode indeed.

While it does seem to lack an obvious point, unlike other episodes which have so eloquently had them, it was satisfying for the reasons Dork listed.  I think the dialogue was quite good.  Especially Alex.

On the picture:  Googling Leviathan, to Wikipedia - Leviathan, to Wikipedia - Behemoth, showed me that the Schwarzwald pamphlet photo is a (slightly different) reproduction of a William Blake woodcut 'Behold now Behemoth which I made from thee' from some Book of Job illustrations.  (That series also featuring the classic 'hi-res woodcut of Job blighted with boils'.)

If you extrapolate from the metaphor, I think that means that they are going to eat your suculent robot bits at the second coming, Big O!  (Hah.)

I really liked Leviathan's attack, by the way.  And the visible physics of buildings and Big O sliding down from gravity were well-done.

Alex said that he was born with the ability to pilot a Megadeus, unlike Roger.  He seems to hint that Rogers abilities were implanted, and are somehow less genuine.  BUT, the idea that Rosewater was born with the knowledge to pilot a Megadeus seems silly.  His statement is sensible on an ego-inflating "I qualify to pilot a Big" level, since they may in fact "choose a pilot", but not on a "I know how to do it well" level.   I'm not sure what to make of that.

Insane Speculation

What should one make of Schwarzwald's remarks about Leviathan where he says (roughly): "each person's desires, jealousies, and fears are small when alone... together becoming an enormous whole that will take shape," and also a bit about Leviathan as "a mirror"?

Is he speaking literally or metaphorically? This intrigues me because I don't think it can be explained why Megadeuses act on their own, or why they exist, or how they relate to Memories -- yet.  I was going to 'go off' on a literalist Mage: The Ascension subjective reality idea, that the collective unconscious god-will of Paradigm City might be creating, attracting, or programming giant robots...  (Haha, because Memory = Imagination, right?)  But I realized there are simpler explanations.

I can find a more reasonable explanation of the statement from what was in that radioplay (thanks for the link last thread).  It suggested that Megadeus's had their Memories erased 40 years ago, and so have an Identity crisis.  So maybe Schwarzwald saw Leviathan as a mirror because it was looking for Memories.  In this case, it invovled assimilating Dorothy.  (Nooo!)

And now that I think of that, the subtle haggling between Alex/Roger/Schwarz about the 'purpose' of the Megadeuses makes more sense.  Because of what happened 40 years ago, or because of a lack of new programming, a Megadeus might not be aware of its own purpose.  And knowing their 'true nature' becomes important since, by all accounts, they probably destroyed the world.

I argue that they are weapons of destruction first and foremost, and 40 years ago they were quite sentient.  Schwarz acknowledges that this is their true nature, and put Big Duo to that purpose.  Alex is totally **bleep**, and sees a self-empowerment religious angle to them.  And Roger seems to see them pragmatically as 'just tools' used my just or unjust people.

An idea at least.  I'm still a little fuzzy about Schwarz's Leviathan comments.  Maybe he was just talking about the old 'dark heart of man'.  Maybe he means that everyone in PC wants to forget the whole idea of war and violence, and that's why they shy away from 'the past' and underground megadeuses. 

Hmm.  In a way, a Rosewaterian Angel/Demon heirarchy view of Megadei makes the most sense, just because of its simplicity.  If you say that the Megadei are spitirual beings, possibly actually serving God, then their spotty self-determination makes more sense.  (As now 'waking up' becomes a rare example of divine/infernal intervention.)

I'm sure I'll be contradicted as things become explained.  But the word 'Beck' and 'next episode' puts me into a speculation panic.  As that means to me I'm almost certain not to get any major plot advancement tomorrow, and thus for the rest of the week.  :smileyhappy:

I'll see.  Sorry this was so long.  :smileyhappy:

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Darius_Vance - Message ID#: 11964018

Oh yea,Id call that minor mindf**k #1 in the series finale.

No less than three season 1 episode flashback/refferences.All tieing together very well.....unless you missed some of them,heh,heh.

I loved the way Dorothy seemed to have no interest in the church scene,walking away halfway into the hym.The shot of her with the grand cathedral in the background was moving.

The old dragon was kinda vauge,but makes more sense later on with the whole Behemoth vs Leviathan theme.You gotta kinda know your religious stories to put this whole puzzle together coherently.Remember that leaflet's illustration,itll make a little(read LITTLE) more sense later on......

 

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Gosh.

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394


I thought Dorothy looked sweet in this episode. She also is out and about on her own quite a lot. The little bit of slip back into the machine speech thing was confusing however. She was talking to the Leviathan that is confusing as well. I think Dorothy "remembers" quite a lot she doesn't let on. The she ends up in the drivers seat of Big 0 why and how?


What the heck is up with Alex? He is a fat old man. No way is he going to pilot a Mega Duce. Particularly one cobbled together from salvaged parts. I don't see where he is coming from.
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Pumpkin Guts
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

[ Edited ]

Reply to R.I.P.ParadigmDog - Message ID#: 11961889



ParadigmDog wrote:

Dork: wow, you seem to take Zopwx2 and me to be hot-headed. lol. You didn't give anything away, you were just throwing out bait...still, for shame! lol. I wondered about that "4", yes. Its placement was amusing. peace.


^_^ I was just kidding around, I didn't mean anything by it. And yes, it was a sort of underhanded way of giving out bait. Sorry 'bout that. I was feeling silly last night.

I can't think of any one thing to comment on but I'm impressed by your thoughts on this episode. Well said all around.

 

muchlove

-dork

Message Edited by Dorks_wuv_Geeks on 02-16-2005 08:57 AM

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Darius_Vance - Message ID#: 11964018

Glad the radio play helped, DV. I do find it goes more in depth on things only hinted at in the series...I think it becomes even more important after the Season Finale of Season 2. (especially since the cashflow's been cut for the rest of the episodes)

As for next episode and Beck, you're right, very limited development of story. It's mostly a comedy episode. Go figure. Although re-watching it, I've found there's some limited elements of importance/foreshadowing...just harder to pick out amidst all the laughing...for the most part, you can take it easy with ACT 18.

Starting next week, and technically on Tuesday, the story will start sprinting with fervor. Your thought process is right on the money right now by looking into things past the surface. As you can tell, some research and/or background on varied subjects such as religion, philosophy, and psychology are kinda needed to understand what's going on. Still, there's many suprises ahead that make nailing down "the truth" so so much harder.

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Re: Gosh.

Reply to FlameBait - Message ID#: 11964495



FlameBait wrote:

What the heck is up with Alex? He is a fat old man. No way is he going to pilot a Mega Duce. Particularly one cobbled together from salvaged parts. I don't see where he is coming from.

I like this thought. LOL! 'A fat old man'?? lol. Give him a little more credit that that. ^_^

Seriously though, he's a bit more competant than one might think...still, we'll see what happens as the adventure continues. I have to say I'm a fan of Alex--every series needs a manipulative villain who can talk the talk.

---

to DORK- I was just joking around too. No hard feelings. On to ACT 18...and a break from the serious tone while Beck takes center stage with his golden self. lol

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11959394

These episodes are getting better each time. I think this episode is one of my favorites so far after hearing Schwarzwald. But I have a few things I need clearing up about Big O so far (please :smileysad: ):
1) Why do they say the three robots are foreign?
2) Why did Dorothy mumble fast (I can't remember why from the previous episode she did it in :smileytongue: )?
3) What was Angel saying about Schwarzwald to Roger in the end?
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to Kelvena - Message ID#: 11972750



Kelvena wrote:
These episodes are getting better each time. I think this episode is one of my favorites so far after hearing Schwarzwald. But I have a few things I need clearing up about Big O so far (please :smileysad: ):
1) Why do they say the three robots are foreign?
2) Why did Dorothy mumble fast (I can't remember why from the previous episode she did it in :smileytongue: )?
3) What was Angel saying about Schwarzwald to Roger in the end?



1. Because they were built outside of Paradigm-city
2. When ever she encounters a archtype ( a megaduce ancestor I think)  The last eps she did that mumble was ep 4 "Underground Terror"
3. Seebach made those papers of the leviatan way before he went crazy in Big-Duo <Act 12> also he hasn't alive for a very long time.
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to Kelvena - Message ID#: 11972750

When Dorothy does that warbler thing I think it's that the megadeuses are trying to gain access to her Memories. And I don't think it's a simple matter of copying them, judging from her terrified reaction in act 4. If it is a simple copy it's probably something of a delicate process. Dorothy is a young little android, she's only a year old when we first meet her in act 1. But living with Roger, what with all the kidnappings, android mind control devices and general attempts on her life, has definitely given her a crash course in fending for herself. When the Leviathan tries to take her Memories in act 17 she's not too happy about it but she doesn't freak out and start rambling on about the Leviathan 'not having anything to do with her'. Instead she makes a play for the moral high ground "Are we the same? I don't know, you've lost your conscience."
 
The Japanese wording is even more interesting. She says it's lost it's soul, and then says 'I can't be your soul'.
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dorks_wuv_Geeks - Message ID#: 11980526

"No one can".  Dorothy  I notice that Big-O appear without warning again.  Roger couldn't communicate with Big-O when he was underground with Alex.  Hint does this sounds familiar?  Is Big-O acting on his own to save Dorothy?  Does Dorothy knows how to operate Big-O?  I really love that Dragon, the dragon is a real bad azz.
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dark-0 - Message ID#: 11981975

Ah, yeah, this is a fun ep.  Scwartzvald's fate revealed, well...okay, shutting up.  Anyways, it's funny, the Leviathan doesn't look like any other Megadeus we've seen.  It's more reptilian than humanoid.  Roger figured out a clever way to kill it, though.

Tonight's episode is "The Greatest Villian?!"  Oh, my, the n00bs are in for a treat...BEST EPISODE EVER!!!!  I always felt that the writers and artists probably enjoyed making this ep.  Oh, I can't wait to see the discussion thread...

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to doingy - Message ID#: 11985116

I love this ep a very good ep indeed despite what people say.  Incase people are wondering what those signs means just wait after the ep airs and someone will tell you what they mean.  If you have dvd's don't say anything yet.
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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to R.I.P.Dark-0 - Message ID#: 11986654

I noticed something new on Leviathan,although it might just be a coincedance it does make sense.

In mythology,the Leviathan is a creature of the sea,and although the dragon ghost archetype came from a sea of sand,did you notice the objects it destroyed on its march to Paradigm City.....a light house and a oil Supertanker...both undoubtably symbols of the sea.

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Re: 'Big O' act 17 'Leviathan'

Reply to turbofb - Message ID#: 11988200

It looks like Schwarzwald found it in the area where Coney Island used to be
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