The Big O

[NegotiatorRogerSmith]

 

…never to happen the way it’s being approached.

 

Guys,

I’ve been on here a few days and one of the most discussed topics is season 3.

Seriously, what does it matter? It came to a semi-conclusion versus S1, which was a total cliffhanger. This season allowed for the viewer to run with it.

Would I shun a S3? Of course not, but what I find amusing is that nobody is really doing anything relevant to make it happen.

Is there anybody on this board that makes over six-figures post-taxes, overhead, and/or other family welfare obligations? Why not a few of us just buy the stupid rights for continuity, dump the money on Sunrise and Ban Dai and call it a day?

As many had mentioned, Turner’s not going to dish out the $$$ for a genre that is too niche, thereby working against it to render a small fan base, which leads to insignificant sales compared to comedy, which is CHEAP to produce and yields high profit margins. Objectively speaking, ANYONE with half a brain would choose the latter business model.

There is a concept of patronship that doesn’t exist anymore, which is the only way you will get a S3. By DONATING the calculated averaged production cost of S1 & S2, called “x,” to the good people who brought you the Big-O and expecting no returns (hence donation) will anything ever happen.

Don’t expect Turner or anyone else in business to somehow agree to throw money away.

This is now a matter of principle and—as difficult as it may be for many to comprehend—profiting has to take the back seat.

So, the first thing to do is find out how much the budget and actual costs for producing S1 (cel) & S2 (digital), considering inflation.

Buying the rights is the easy part, and it will be even easier when you’re basically donating money to resuscitate an indefinitely suspended project.

It really isn’t THAT difficult. Money makes things happen. The other element that would make this VERY feasible is the Japanese culture, which is highly collectivistic. So when you take that inherent passion of a culture and add to it the passion of an artist (in the broadest sense of the word, e.g. writers, animators, and the entire staff that made the Big-O happen in the first place), you get things moving.

All it takes is sincere intent, and when you slam this on anybody, they know you’re serious.

There you have it, that’s how you get S3 -- no crappy petition attempts, no whining, no hoping, no depending on a group of businessmen who are seeking profitable products. Do it yourself.

And to those that want to entertain the idea of making the Big-O a profitable product, all I say is good luck. As previously mentioned, you can’t make everybody enjoy a detective-mystery show with a splash of mecha; therefore, it will not reach the success of its cousin, BtAS.

The biggest blunder of the marketing group that dreamt up Big-O was the name itself, since it’s most commonly associated with the female **pOp**, though I prefer it over “The Incredible Adventures of Roger & Pals.”

If, however, it is possible to make it profitable, I encourage you to draft a convincing business plan, based upon empirical evidence and pitch it to Turner/CN. The patronship principle still applies. If pitched to Turner, it would make the project more appealing if you bowed out expecting zero compensation. On a side note, you don’t HAVE to go to Turner; you can always pitch elsewhere. Consider, too, that it took Haim Saban 8 years of pitching before FOX green-lighted the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers (he’s a billionaire now btw).

So, to recap:

• 1. Find out the budget & actual costs for S1 & S2
• 2. Fundraise to meet that budget with a 25% hedge to avoid depletion, which would not only prevent S3 from not being made, but a lot of money lost in the process
  • a. Consider that a good portion of a project’s budget includes marketing, e.g. print, television, promotional products, etc.
    • i. They do this because they’re creating a MARKETABLE product to recoup and ultimately create new wealth from an initial investment.
  • b. Because we’re “funding” it, they have nothing to recoup. The only thing lost to them is opportunity cost of what other project they could be working on in the meantime and the possible ROI from it
    • i. Best case scenario, it will be cheaper because we don’t budget for marketing at all since the producers aren’t vested, though unlikely since that would imply that should the producers attempt a marketing campaign to generate sales, it would be out of their pocket. The aforementioned lost opportunity cost would further make it less worthwhile for producers to pursue since they could be focusing on another, profitable venture (no marketing = no sales).
    • ii. Expected scenario is that we fund marketing and allow all profits to go directly to the production company, e.g. we, the benefactors, take NOTHING out of it except the satisfaction of admiring our efforts in the finished product of S3, just like the Medici’s
• 3. Get the rights for continuity only (if we even need them at this point), and allow the production companies earn 100% of any net revenue, as stated in step 2, which will sweeten the deal for them, thereby giving them the greatest incentive to move forward to begin with.
  • a. Consider that the producers would be foolish to pass up the opportunity to accept a donation which will realize profit since, in their eyes, the product was “free” due to our contributions. Purely discussing this, the cost-benefit analysis would come down to net revenue less taxes paid on contributions/monetary “gifts,” which is classified as “additional income.”

 

I’m beginning my first year of law school in Fall 2010, concentrating on entertainment.

When I graduate in 2014 and assuming that there are some affluent people on the boards that for some reason didn’t take off with this, I propose we get together, put our money where our mouth is, set up some meetings with the production companies in Japan, go there with an interpreter, and leave with S3 in the works. It’s been so long since S2, what’s 3-4 more years, right?

Like I said, it’s not THAT difficult.

Admittedly, this would, however, be an ENTIRELY different discussion if we assumed the role of investors (not patron), thereby changing the dynamic to profit-making, which would require advanced knowledge of entertainment contract negotiations, copyrights, intellectual rights, etc, not to mention production project management.

The way I see it, give them the $$$ and tell them to do it just like before.

I must address that the term “donate” is used loosely throughout this proposal. I am not implying that if Sunrise and the other guys blow the money, there won’t be any consequence. The fact is the money is given assuming certain conditions are met:

• 1) Try as hard as possible to reassemble the same people behind S1 & S2,
• 2) S3 is completed within the episode requirement agreed upon (most likely 13 eps, since 26 would possibly be too expensive). There is a possibility that cranking out an additional 13 episodes may not be too much more, who knows?! The point is, we want a S3 to tie up loose ends, and it would be in their best interest to just wrap it up versus sit around for another group of rabid fans to dump a wad of cash on them and bail them out

I’ve written this mess in one fell swoop, so I apologize for any redundancies or incoherent rants.

I’m as passionate as the next guy—possibly more so—about this show, and it’s just aggravating to see such a display of passive-aggressiveness.

If you know how to talk to the right people, this is a feasible objective. The questions is: is there anyone who will join in to make it happen? If not, then you—and only you, who have the means, but steer away from making it possible—are to blame.

So please, stop hassling Turner/CN, Ban-Dai, and Sunrise. Their hands are tied, and your petty, persistent, unfounded, empty requests will continue to go unread.

- No Side -

[ben0119]

I didn't read all that, yet... but it is possible.  Didn't the Farscape fans donate a bunch of money so it could have a conclusion?

[Top_Gun]

I'm honestly impressed by the amount of dedication you obviously have to this series in order to set down a complex plan of action like that, but with all due respect, I don't think such an approach would be nearly as feasible as you've assumed. First off, from what I know of the entertainment industry in general, I'd estimate that purchasing the rights would easily run into the seven-figure range, possibly significantly so. Publishers tend to guard their intellectual properties very carefully, and they wouldn't be willing to let a title which could have significant earning power at some future date go for just a song and dance. That's not even taking into account the cost of actually producing a new season of the series: from what vague bits of data I've heard, big-budget titles like Big O would presumably be routinely run into the six-figure range for a single episode. On top of everything else, even if you were to somehow gather that sort of financial backing together, you'd have to deal with the production side of the Japanese anime industry, which by all accounts is an incredibly byzantine and slow-to-adapt group. Established American distributors have enough trouble as-is even getting promotional artwork for series they've already licensed. I can't imagine how a production company would react when approached with a completely-unprecedented proposal along these lines.

If you were able to track down a huge fan of the series who managed to hit a massive Powerball jackpot and was willing to spare something like $10 million (or more) for the creation of a new series, then you might have a start. But even in that case, there's no guarantee that Bandai Visual would show any interest at all in the proposal, even if you were willing to essentially dump that money in their laps, no strings attached. I don't want to sound like I'm raining on your parade...but the truth of the matter is that Big O has most likely seen the end of brand-new content for its franchise. Back in the bubble years of anime in the US, its first season performed well enough to generate an unprecedented trans-Pacific production of new episodes, but the second season never quite measured up to expectations...and now that the domestic anime market has shrunken considerably from those days, its time has seemingly passed. Even if there's a fan-driven will to see the franchise live again, sometimes things like this are simply out of our hands.

(Oh, and as the title "The Big O" was chosen for a Japanese production, I'd wager that it doesn't have any sort of connotation along those lines in that language. )

[NegotiatorRogerSmith]

First, I would like to thank you, TG, for your response. I have addressed your arguments within your quote for user-friendliness:

---

Top_Gun wrote:
I'm honestly impressed by the amount of dedication you obviously have to this series in order to set down a complex plan of action like that, but with all due respect, I don't think such an approach would be nearly as feasible as you've assumed. First off, from what I know of the entertainment industry in general, I'd estimate that purchasing the rights would easily run into the seven-figure range, possibly significantly so.

So far, this is all speculation. No facts have been produced. The only facts required are the actual budgets for S1 and S2. Only after that figure has been established can further proceedings take place.
 
I imagined the series would run into the million(s), including securing rights, but didn’t think in the 10MM+’s. If so, it would simply require that much more of an affluent fan base. The financing part is what it is: you either have it, you don’t, or you can get it. This is the part where soliciting to a possible, existing affluent fan base comes in, because only they would part ways with a substantial sum of money on the principle of patronage without expecting any monetary ROI.
 
Securing rights can cost anywhere from $0.00 to $X, or to the extreme of the holder rejecting ANY offer because you looked at him cockeyed, depending on who you’re dealing with, history, etc. I’m not necessarily implying that I’d get it for free; however, I do know how to present a convincing argument and how to deal with C-level professionals (I do it for a living).

Publishers tend to guard their intellectual properties very carefully, and they wouldn't be willing to let a title which could have significant earning power at some future date go for just a song and dance. That's not even taking into account the cost of actually producing a new season of the series: from what vague bits of data I've heard, big-budget titles like Big O would presumably be routinely run into the six-figure range for a single episode. On top of everything else, even if you were to somehow gather that sort of financial backing together, you'd have to deal with the production side of the Japanese anime industry, which by all accounts is an incredibly byzantine and slow-to-adapt group. Established American distributors have enough trouble as-is even getting promotional artwork for series they've already licensed. I can't imagine how a production company would react when approached with a completely-unprecedented proposal along these lines.

Getting continuity rights (different from general rights) is far more easier. There are hundreds of different rights to a work. Right now, someone holds the motion picture rights to The Big-O, granted the likelihood of it being produced are slim to none, the fact remains that it exists.
 
This entire argument comes down to intent. My intent is fueled by a deeply-rooted devotion to an anime series (as strange as it may sound) and to see a masterpiece finished. The Big-O to me is like seeing the foundation and cornerstones laid for the great pyramid and watching the laborers and nobility turn away and go home, never to return. My intent is not to defraud anyone. To the contrary, new wealth will be realized to the production companies at the cost of personal contribution. At the end of the day, it’s not the production companies concern where the money came from so long as it wasn’t embezzled, or otherwise revocable by an authoritative agency.

This issue regarding the difficulty of working with the Japanese production industry comes down to the American (or any other country for sake of argument) intent of generating profit. That argument cannot be entertained here because there is no investment to be recouped. Any and all profits generated from this project would be a perk for the production companies and they would maximize its earning potential given its rare, and unusual, basis.
 
The point is, assuming the financing were attainable and donated, there would be little, if any, hassles green-lighting. Obtaining rights, re-forming the cast and crew, writers, etc all come after green-lighting, which is dependent upon a well reasoned argument (“FREE money” via donation and post-production earnings) and financing, which is the driving force in making this feasible to begin with.
 
I believe I appropriated for any issues regarding language barriers by provisioning for an interpreter; however, once again, proposal made, everything is left to the production company to handle like they did seasons 1 & 2. There would be no involvement, or otherwise censorship from any of us, collectively, the patron.

Only difference is who is funding it. If anything, the main contingency to plan against is laziness bred by unaccountability (the money falling on their lap). For the most part (and this is 4 years of Japanese society and cultural studies speaking), their work-ethic is impeccable, so I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over this scenario.

If you were able to track down a huge fan of the series who managed to hit a massive Powerball jackpot and was willing to spare something like $10 million (or more) for the creation of a new series, then you might have a start. But even in that case, there's no guarantee that Bandai Visual would show any interest at all in the proposal, even if you were willing to essentially dump that money in their laps, no strings attached. I don't want to sound like I'm raining on your parade...but the truth of the matter is that Big O has most likely seen the end of brand-new content for its franchise. Back in the bubble years of anime in the US, its first season performed well enough to generate an unprecedented trans-Pacific production of new episodes, but the second season never quite measured up to expectations...and now that the domestic anime market has shrunken considerably from those days, its time has seemingly passed. Even if there's a fan-driven will to see the franchise live again, sometimes things like this are simply out of our hands.

With all due respect, as far as the scenario you proposed regarding Ban Dai not showing any interest if the money was dumped on their laps, I’d beg to differ. The only thing stopping progress would be issues involving the rights or the staff that worked on the Big-O already being committed to another project, which would merely postpone S3, not eliminate its possibility.
 
I understand your position—and rightfully so—regarding the unlikelihood of new content being produced for the Big-O; however, that all ties back to realizable net revenue by creating a profitable product. In the original proposal, that issue is done away with, thereby negating any argument in its nature.

(Oh, and as the title "The Big O" was chosen for a Japanese production, I'd wager that it doesn't have any sort of connotation along those lines in that language. )

As practical is it may be that they don’t have a double-entendre for the series’ title, they failed to recognize global market research before branding. It took Nintendo many years to settle on “Wii,” making sure it didn’t translate to anything offensive in other languages, and most importantly to them, it was easy for any dialect to pronounce or learn to pronounce. The name itself doesn’t bother me too much, but when the creator (I believe) for Big-O stated in an interview that it was their intention all along to be successful overseas, it makes the blunder all the worse. If the show was originally never meant to cross the pond, then that’s a different story. 

---

Thanks for the constructive feedback. All your points are valid and taken; however, I’m not implying that it will happen.
 
Main message = (fans) stop whining about it. It won’t happen on its own or by nagging. It's in your hands, but only under these extreme conditions.

Message Edited by NegotiatorRogerSmith on 03-15-2010 12:57 PM

Message Edited by NegotiatorRogerSmith on 03-15-2010 01:00 PM

[Top_Gun]

It's obvious that you've put a great deal of thought into even the potential issues surrounding such a proposal, and again, I'm greatly impressed by this. I honestly don't have any personal experience with the business world as a whole, to say nothing of the entertainment industry, so it may be that some of my concerns about Bandai's reaction to a proposal like this might be ill-founded. I still have some more general reservations about the overall concept, but there is a possibility that something like this could see a series produced. As you yourself said, though, the problem then becomes trying to find the people with enough financial clout to back the continuation of a several-year-old anime series, which you have to admit seems a rather unlikely prospect.

I think the main issue for me personally is that I'm part of the seemingly-small group that is actually relatively satisfied with the way the series ended, open-ended as that ending may be. Anime in general tends to have a reputation of often having problems ending series definitively, but at least in my opinion, Big O is one of the few series that uses this trait to positive effect, instead of as a detriment. With the show ending as it did, one can craft a number of different explanations of that ending based on all of the evidence provided, and each of them can be argued against the others with equal validity. It's that freedom of interpretation and thought experiments that's one of the main reasons why I personally love the series so much, and I think it's a big contributing factor to its (relative) continued popularity over the years. Part of me feels like any sort of attempt at a continuation of the story would take away from some of that intrigue and potential that the series holds for me. One of my favorite computer games, FreeSpace 2, is actually in a very similar situation plot-wise, and like Big O, that's part of what makes it so attractive to me. I know it's probably very much a your-mileage-may-vary situation, though.

I do think it's funny that you brought up Nintendo's process of choosing the name "Wii," though, seeing as how "wee-wee" jokes were pretty much ubiquitous during the month or so after it was announced. That example does show that said associations don't always hold up, since no one really bats an eye at the name of the console now; likewise, I don't think the anime community in general thinks twice about "The Big O" as a title nowadays. Although it may have been the original creators' hope/intention to be successful overseas, that doesn't necessarily translate into doing exhaustive research to track down a piece of relatively-obscure English slang, particularly when you're talking about a rather low-profile anime production. Lord knows that anime in general often has difficulties with getting even ordinary English words right.

[NegotiatorRogerSmith]

I’m actually pretty happy with the way the series ended, too.

However, as much as I would like it to have ended there, the writing wasn’t meant to, as per Kim Manning’s 2007 Q&A with Jason DeMarco, who stated he was “happy with the ending of the story in season 2, though the writer, Chiaki Konaka, told [him] he did have another idea for season 3.” [1]

The fact that a brilliant man such as Konaka had more is what kills me. If he had stated “nope, that’s it, and that’s that -- end of story, figuratively AND literally speaking,” I would be a happy camper.

What doesn’t hold up, though, is that if they had more to offer, why not just adapt the story to manga for the truly devout. Just a thought. ::shrug::

Maybe it was meant to end there. In that same Q&A, DeMarco stated that “[t]he only reason Bandai made season 2 was because we asked them to…”

That said, it may have been possible that they only continued to write for the paycheck. At this point it’s all speculation, and with a title like the Big-O, you’re awash in a sea of it.

[1] - http://web.archive.org/web/20070930211715/http://www.adultswim.co
m/williams/askas/kim.html

[ben0119]

Good grief, it is dueling walls of text.  You guys put me to shame!

[crackymckrackin]

I can see a resurgence in the fans for this show if the batman series (live action) continues to pump out those top box office numbers. The series really is akin to Batman and I think anime is really starting to grow in the states. as people start to discover it series like this only stand greater and greater chances of being revisited. I could see Bandai being persuaded to at least re-visit the idea of a third season.

[NegotiatorRogerSmith]

Perhaps. However, I am taking an ensuing speculative debate and shaping it to empowered action.

Relying on others will only get you so far in a project of this measure, which under current conditions is not likely. Until what you are proposing takes better form—anime becomes evermore popular and the Big-O gains a resurgence—my argument is that it would take our collective generosity and assertiveness to get S3 made.

[Glacialforce]

I want S3 so bad! Although due to the ending of season two implies it would probably be time travel related in which case I would not want that cause I hate shows that demonstrate time travel inappropriately (LOST plus others) . As paradox as it is I surprisingly felt that J.K Rowling did time traveling correctly in the third book as the events they had to do had already taken place.

[Top_Gun]

I personally don't think straight-up "time travel" was what we saw at the end of the series. If all of Paradigm City was some sort of virtual world, a literal "stage," as Big Venus's actions suggested, I think what we saw was more along the lines of a "reset button," a reboot of the simulation. There are a lot of different directions you could go with that.

[NegotiatorRogerSmith]

If you want to have fun with the series, brush up on Goffman's Dramaturgical Model, then watch it again.

[BigOFan]

I'm in. You provide the proper channels, I'll contribute.

[Makahari2000]

Bait title is bait.

[NegotiatorRogerSmith]

I apologize for the delayed response; however, I have been swamped with transitioning my job responsibilities after tendering my resignation in preparation for law school.

BigOFan –

If you are SERIOUS about moving forward with my proposal as soon as possible, I would strongly suggest running with it, given that my money will be tied up in my legal education for the next 3-4 years. I will be in a much better position to contribute generously after I’m practicing.

If, however, you have any suggestions on getting other investors together, please feel free to PM me or post directly on this thread.

What would seem to be an act of fate, in the past few months, while acquiring more Big-O production cels, I became acquainted with a family friend of Keiichi Sato (the designer).

Next time I’m in communication with them, I’ll ask them to inquire with Mr. Sato if he happens to know the ballpark production budgets of seasons 1 & 2. Personally, I would prefer them to go back to cel animation with S3 versus digital.

To keep me from going mad in isolation, I’ve been watching seasons 1 & 2 every night for the past 7 months on mute while studying and can tell considerable differences in animation style between both seasons, the first season being of much higher quality, though my favorite episode is Roger the Wanderer – go figure?

TopGun –

I haven’t forgotten about you! I promise I will get you some photos of my personal collection soon. I’m visiting the vault tomorrow and will take a camera with me, though I can only use it in the viewing room, which is rather small and poorly lit. I’ll send you what I can for the time being and if the quality isn’t as good as you expected, I’ll have to withdraw my holdings from the bank and retake better pictures at a different location, though this would delay things by a month or two.

- To be Continued -

[dingdow]

Amen!

[Shubarutsubaruto]

I offer what skills I have as a copywriter and as a 5.5 year student of the Japanese language, as well as having worked with companies like Disney and the Human Rights Campaign. As far as money, in 3-4 years I hope to have a great deal more than I have. No promises, alas.

I can tell you, in regards to the animation style, you won't have much luck reviving cel animation, falling into disuse as it has since the early 2000s. True, S2 was a composite of occasionally bad digital and stock footage from S1, but it cost less to patchwork it the way they did. I realize this will be the long and painful efforts of realizing a dream over the next, I'd say at least, eight years, but I don't think the show will lose anything if the animation's a little cheap. Watch the last quarter of Evangelion, which was plagued with still images with dialogue dubbed over it, and somehow those episodes were the best of the series.

Also, I know how to get in contact with various heads in Bandai, Production IG and other major corps, if you find such data useful to your cause.

You might also try getting in-touch with the people here http://www.freewebs.com/seebach/ Some may be more than petition-criers.

Love what you're trying to do. Keep me appraised of plans as they develop.

[ComradeClaus]

Yeah, I know online petitions don't amount to much. Actions (money particularly) count for far more. In the old days, letters sent in huge quantities had some effect. but most petitions merely rot in the crevases of the webz. -->>It'd be a huge help if we could find any celebrities which are fans of Big O. Star Power would have the greatest impact we could hope for.

[creepyrainbowcrture]

This probably sounds bad but. . . . . . . . . . . . I just creamed in my pants. . .

[creepyrainbowcrture]

Just the idea of a S3 . . .

[ALchemist81]

I saw an interesting bump before Aqua Teen tonight (punctuation paraphrased):


"I looked at the Saturday schedule, and how it has more premieres than Sunday does. I will never complain about the anime schedule again."

"You know what? Just for that, we'll look into some original anime productions."


Could this mean...BIG O SEASON 3?

[Top_Gun]

Iiiiiiii highly doubt it.

[Crunk_Demon]

I love that show, brings back memories of me staying up late during a school night just to watch it at 11pm......and again at 3am LOL. 

[ALchemist81]

As do I. But it's interesting that [as] has now brought Big O Season 2 back to the forefront of the anime reruns. After being stuck at 4:30 a.m. or later for a year and a half in '09 and the first half of '10, it's kicking off the anime reruns at 1:30 a.m. in 2011! Received top billing amidst the reruns, following a new FMA...could [as] have been secretly developing new episodes of Big O all this time...? And would they begin 13 weeks into 2011, on April 3?

Even if not, [as] could totally trick us with the worst late April Fools day joke of all time, putting it on the schedule that the PREMIERE of Big O Episode 27 is coming on, then just 14 with some extra crap drawn into it, or maybe Roger Smith with a bad case of gas. Would they do that? For the answer, recall 2006, when apparently Mokoto (GITS) had been eating lots of beans despite having a prosthetic body!

[ben0119]

Noooo it means IGPX Season 2, Boyeee!  *gunshot*

Also, I still haven't read this thread... that guy's posts are like ten times longer than mine.  It's... too much for me to handle. x_x

Edit -  This seems relevant here, so I am re-posting it:

But it got the best Adult Swim Anime ratings EVER!  Yes, that's right... ever!  Look it up, if you don't believe me, but it's been stated multiple times on these boards, with sources cited.  If that's not enough for a Season 3, I don't know what is!  Maybe that Japanese didn't want to do it?  That's all I can think of. 

Also, while Big O is very popular in America, it really hasn't been the case in Japan.  And once shows get canceled in Japan, that is usually it.  It's tends to be a lot harder for "revivals" to happen there, just from the way the TV system works, it seems.  A shame, really.  But I wouldn't mind it even if it was direct-to-DVD or something.  I'd buy it!