The Swim Archive

[eimajtI]

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Midnight_Temptress wrote:

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beyondthehorizon wrote:
The communication here is in reference to communicating what the ban is for. If mods were to sign their bans, some users could just go, "Oh, Bast banned me again. She's just a jerk." All without taking the time to notice what the ban is actually for.

The ban shouldn't be about who banned you, but what you were banned for. In theory, any mod would've banned you for the same reason.

Maybe what should be happening is any mod could make their own judgment on any given situation, and run it by the other mods in the mod board before running with it. Banning mod can still overrule any decision, but some discussion over these things could help remove any possible bias or anything. But then, nobody has all the right information...

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Can you imagine the ridiculous amount of time that would take and what the offender might continue to do wrong in that time frame?  They're mods because the admins trust their personal judgment.  Everything shouldn't have to be run by committee.  I swear sometimes people act like this is a court of law instead of a message board.  You all don't do hard time for a ban.  You just don't get to post for a while, or in worst case, on that name again.  And if you earn yourself an IP ban,  you already had all your appeals and deserve what you got.

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I'm with you, there's no need for a meeting about bans. Theses particular people were chosen to be mods for a reason. Just because there are a lot of people that can't understand the basic idea of punishment doesn't mean we should pile more annoying work on the mods. It's just silly - especially when you consider the fact that the mods don't even have set schedules. It would be nearly impossible to actually have a group discussion on a ban. 

I'm agreeing with Luuv as well about understanding the ban - that's what I was saying with my initial response to J-Dub. There's really no need for the mod's name. If you get banned, you got banned. What mod did it will really have no bearing on the situation. You can still go into the mod folder and make your appeal, it'll just not be adressed to anyone specific. If the banning mod feels like responding they can, if they don't - they don't have to. I think a lot of people are forgetting that the mods DO NOT have any obligation to the Hey Mod thread whatsoever. A lot of people are taking the fact that you can appeal your ban here for granted. 

How many other sites are out there that when you are banned that's it? There's no appeal no second chance on that name, and sometimes the site. Instead of asking for more, more, more people really need to just stop and be thankful for what they have. Yeah, thankful for what you have. With the commotion bans make, the site must be pretty darned important to y'all as it is. 

[SwimMod_Luuv]

I think to an extent the moderation is - like there's a central TOS, and the mods

kind of keep on the same page, and there's an admin to help refocus if things

start to ever get too unbalanced or out of hand or whatever like that.

But because it is a volunteer gig, and sometimes can actually be fun, but also

sometimes can be a fairly high stress type volunteer gig, if you want to hang

onto good moderators, you kind of have to leave some room for people doing

it up their own way to a certain extent.

I think there have been mods that tried that (listing themselves on the bans) but

they didn't do it for very long.  So must not have worked out, or else they just

forgot to do it or something who knows.

Personally, I chose to try to communicate the ban reason only.  For one thing,

that really is all that text field is for in the first place.

For another thing, the more details/information you present, the more you

desimplify it.  The more you complicate it.  And the more you allow anyone

inclined toward evasive behavior to work whatever angles may exist in

their own minds.

My preference as a mod - and I'm - like if dealing with a mod was like taking

a class, mine would be super easy to pass.  Because I pretty much give the answers

to the test fairly often when I post on the boards.

Basically as a mod, my obligation is to communicate the violation.

And all I need to know from a user is that they get it and will make an effort

not to do it again.

I think you would understand if you'd moderated for this board or paid attention

more to the ban dynamics.  I mean, I've had major conflagrations/callouts/

accusations from users I had no idea who they were.

Like "Luuv is out to get me" or something.  And I'm like "who tf is that?"

I think, if there's already a system in place, as a mod, how I like to do it is,

provide useful information to the banee.  

I really don't think that the name of their banning mod is particularly useful.

I mean, there's a ban thread they can come to if they have questions and I

frequent that thread.  So I generally do answer pretty much all the questions 

from users I ban that have them.

Given all that, I personally don't see the merit in adding additional distraction/

squirm fodder/potentially provocative information to the ban screen that is

essentially useless/serves no purpose.

At least with my bans.

[SwimMod_Luuv]

The other side of this is, I have a couple strong personal views,

on sort of supercedes the other.

The primary one is - I really do think moderators should be allowed to approach

it their own way to an extent.

The other is - my personal view is, if a moderator is handing out a lot of bans,

especially permabans, they should also be able to deal with those users and

answer their questions.

I really don't think any mod should be handing out bans like candy and then ducking

the questions that follow.

But, if that were to occur on a large scale, like if there were a mod that was

just plain banhappy and not talking to anybody, other mods would discuss that

with them and ultimately if it was a problem, admins would also step in and

discuss it with them.

As things stand, I think we do have a healthy system. Mods watch users, users

watch mods too.  Mods watch mods.  Admins watch mods.  Everybody kind

of keeps an eye on everybody else.

And if/when a large problem pops up, it generally gets addressed in my experience.

That doesn't mean that like - people don't constantly want to tweek things.  Like

everybody's got little ideas about "well if you did this then this would be better"

that may or may not work in the fullness of practice.  Some of that stuff

gets considered, other stuff doesn't.

But the mods we have, and I think this is good, actually have varying philosophies

to a certain extent about exactly in detail how to moderate.

I actually think that's healthy.  If any one of us ever goes out of balance to

the point where users start to notice, other mods start to notice, admins start

to notice etc, then I'm certain that would get addressed.

But while I don't think the mod thread is perfect, I think it's very satisfactory

and beneficial.  I think it's the best system we could have given all the factors.

You're probably correct in thinking there are tweeks we could make to improve

upon it.

My personal view is mods having to remember to sign the ban screens on

the user ban screen isn't a tweek that would improve the existing system.

Rather I think it would desimplify it and make it less stable a process.

[SwimMod_Luuv]

Believe me, none of our mods are lazy.

If we were lazy, we wouldn't have a mod thread or this thread.

I think in fact, this is fairly rare on internet message boards, having moderators

actually address users, their questions, their concerns, etc on the board

proper right out in front of all the users etc.

When we started doing it, it was fairly unique to this board and I think it pretty

much still is in general.

It sounds kinda cliche but when I think about the people I am priveledged to 

have known and mod with here, I'm just insanely proud of all of them.

It's a much wilder ride sometimes than I think users understand.  It can be

boring sure, and sometimes fun, but also at times can be very challenging

and very trying.

And they all keep coming back for more.

So - we might actually be a bit on the dim side. 

but not lazy.

[SwimMod_Luuv]

Humbug is actually a very thoughtful administrator in terms of listening 

to users I think.

But also - like any admins we've had, has tons of stuff to do.

I think that your situation was a very unusual case and presented us with

some tough calls.

And you know, I'm not berating you or anything, I'm just sayin, Humbug or

the mods didn't bring that situation about.  It was part of a fairly giant mess

that we had to sort out that involved a ton of different issues.

My personal view is that the call that was made was the right one. 

And part of why I say that is, you still don't quite seem to be able to grasp

the larger sense of what you participated in, and the level of harassment

that was going down etc.

It's kind of like this - there was an obvious riot going on.  And you kind of 

looked at it and said "oh fun!" and jumped in.  But elsewhere in the riot, there

was actual damage being done, people being threatened, people being harassed,

etc.

And you were in a very strong sense, cheering that on.  Not directly.  But you

did know that it was essentially bad activity.  Even if you weren't directly

aware that worse things were happening on the board perse.

And all of this while in the role of being essentially a volunteer guide/helper

for the board itself.

So - even without the bad part of the riot, it's kind of bad for somebody in

that role to even jump in and go "fun!".

And nobody, no mods and no admins, wanted to deal with it in the sense of,

none of us wanted to perform any sort of disciplinary whatever, bans etc.

Because basically everybody likes you and nobody enjoys banning you or

anything like that.

But it was kind of a big deal.  And your participation in it, and this is something

I strongly believe personally, had to be addressed.

It simply wasn't possible to let it go.

But at the same time, nobody dislikes you or thinks you should stop posting 

here or anything like that.  So we're left with - the option that we took.  Which

I think was the measured/decent response.

And like any ban, it's open to revisiting down the road at such time that enough

time has passed and it seems clear that you get it and won't repeat the behavior.

I think your blank spot with this particular situation is that you're actively

chosing not to see the whole picture of everything that you were encouraging

that night/and a part of, rather instead sort of wanting to see it from a very

small perspective of - like in your little corner of that event, it was only fun, 

and it wasn't bad.

But - you know, the event itself was obviously bad/malicious in nature.  

So on some level, you must have known that bad things were happening

somewhere.  And if you didn't, I think it's good that somebody stepped in

and pointed out that this is the case.

I mean, from what I know of you, I'm pretty sure you would never want

to hurt anyone or encourage that.

But in a sense, that's kinda what you were doing, while wearing an AS volunteer

tag.

So - it's a sad situation, and it was sad for us to have to do it.

But I really think it was the right call.

But also, nobody resents you or anything.  It was just - how things unfolded.

[SwimMod_Luuv]

We actually do this a lot.  Consult each other or ask admins or vice-versa.

[spring]

i guess you got a point, but it be nice if the mods would at least say they banned the person in the mod thread, like a couple of times when i got banned i asked but then the mod never answered me =( i was just curious is all T_T wasnt gonna be all RAWRZ I HAET U GO TO HELL GRRRR. and im sure others are like that as well. but i guess you got a point, some usres might just be like LOL MOD HAETZ ME TOTZ RAWRZ if the mods name was put on the ban screen or something. but i still think more mods should come forward, like not if its like alotta bans type of thing just individually too. like i said incase someone wants to just ask em a simple question or talk to them, or if it was a permybantz ask later on if they can get thier main back.

and about your other message its cool i didnt think you guys hated me i joke about you guys hatin me but i dun rly think that lol. uhhhh yeah guess your right, well i didnt really know of EVERYTHING that went on that night. i just saw lotsa spam, and yeah i was like yay spam!!! cuz i like spam >_____> and like i know i shouldnt of taken advantage of teh haxing either that was wrong of me, wish i didnt do that, no matter how cool that icon is >____>, but still whats done is done. and its fine, i never really like blamed you guys or got upset that you de-helpered me and permybantz me i kinda figured you guys would the moment i was like oh hay lets join in the chaos! and stuff. so thats why when humbug talked to me i wasnt even upset and i was like yeah its cool you gotta do watcha gotta do, basically. but kinda hard to rly grasp the srsness when all i basically saw was a whollllle lotta spam, and things like changing users into mods, unbaning IP ban users, moar spammminng, changing the boards around, things like that i didnt rly see as TOO harmful. course maybe it was O_o i tend to kinda like... not take things serious, so maybe those things wre alot more serious then i thought they were. well later on after my ban and stuff then i had heard of other things like haxing into ppls accts, banning them, harrasing them, and i was like oooooh ok then thats not so cool and fun and stuff. i just saw the spam part of it really.

whelp, it was awhile ago, so yeah... its no biggy. im trying my best to behave now, and i defz wont repeat that anymore i kinda do regret it sometimes anyways, my actions that night, like sometimes i miss being a helper, buuuuuut what can ya do? so its fine, i had already accepted it, and im sorry for contributing to the chaos, sometimes i just kinda think about myself more then others, and if i hurt anyone i certainly didnt mean to.

anyways, later on like way later on, if i keep behaving maybe ill ask you guys about getting my main back, but i hadnt even thought of bringing up the issue for quite awhile lol. in the meantime i should work on being better user

[beyondthehorizon]

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Midnight_Temptress wrote:

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beyondthehorizon wrote:
Maybe what should be happening is any mod could make their own judgment on any given situation, and run it by the other mods in the mod board before running with it. Banning mod can still overrule any decision, but some discussion over these things could help remove any possible bias or anything. But then, nobody has all the right information...

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Can you imagine the ridiculous amount of time that would take and what the offender might continue to do wrong in that time frame?  They're mods because the admins trust their personal judgment.  Everything shouldn't have to be run by committee.  I swear sometimes people act like this is a court of law instead of a message board.  You all don't do hard time for a ban.  You just don't get to post for a while, or in worst case, on that name again.  And if you earn yourself an IP ban,  you already had all your appeals and deserve what you got. 

Edit:  one letter was missing.....one.

Message Edited by Midnight_Temptress on 03-06-2010 04:03 AM

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That was more just for mod thread type stuff. If a particular mod doesn't seem to be answering a question, have some others look it over. A second option after going to an admin.

[psycho_raven]

mods....why there is so much Subaru?

[beyondthehorizon]

Maybe because the mods are her Crimson Knights?

[ben0119]

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55 wrote:

Like, normally the webcam just faces the middle of the room, but if it shifted over to our left, you'd see Drew. Over to our right is Humbug.

Here, I dug up some screenshots.

Here's an older Humbug screenshot, and here's a Drew.

Message Edited by 55 on 03-05-2010 05:30 AM

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Okay, yeah, that was Drew I saw.  Thanks for the screenshots.

Man, this thread is way too busy... O_O

I could never keep up with it like I do the Why Mod thread.

[superking09]

Do you think that maybe an administrator could capitalize my S and my K in my screen name?

[SwimMod_Bast]

Any changes made to your SN would go away when you logged out/back in because of the way the board recognizes IDs.

[terrorist96]

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J-Dubb wrote:
I've been reading the HEY MOD thread and people always ask you guys who banned'em and nine times outta ten, the banning mod never addresses the user in question, or comes in to answer said user's question.

So I'm wondering why the mods never label their bans as theirs?
It'll save a whole lotta trouble for both parties, mainly those who DO get banned
Cuz they'd know who banned them.

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I know I'd always do that if I were a mod. I think it might be either because:

1. They don't want to get yelled at.
2. They don't care enough to reverse bans or give people that option, so they don't check the Why Mod folder. Like one of the users above said, there is nothing that says they need to communicate with the user. (Though I personally think it should be the other way around).
3. They want to still be seen as cool or laid back or not be hated. But in secret, they do ban people. *cough odin cough* (just playin')
4. Communication to them is banning you. Not verbally communicating, ie. discussing it. (Again, I think they should discuss it. With great power comes great responsibility. You can't just exercise power and avoid scrutiny.)

Overall, I think it would cut back on useless posts in the Why Mod thread when the user could PM the mod directly or address it with them in the thread.
And if a mod is finding it they are coming here as little as once every two months, maybe they should retire. (Not directed towards any mod).
Yes, I know it's a volunteer job, but if there are others who can become mods who may be on more and mod more, it would be beneficial.

And if a mod has retired, then the user can appeal it to an admin. And would most likely get a speedy response.
Instead of waiting for a mod who is never going to respond. And the user is not even at least told that the mod doesn't intend to address it so the user can just stop trying. By not addressing the situation, the mod is avoiding responsibility and by not even telling the user they're not gonna talk about it, they're just leaving said user hanging. That's not very nice.

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beyondthehorizon wrote:
The communication here is in reference to communicating what the ban is for. If mods were to sign their bans, some users could just go, "Oh, Bast banned me again. She's just a jerk." All without taking the time to notice what the ban is actually for.

The ban shouldn't be about who banned you, but what you were banned for. In theory, any mod would've banned you for the same reason.

Maybe what should be happening is any mod could make their own judgment on any given situation, and run it by the other mods in the mod board before running with it. Banning mod can still overrule any decision, but some discussion over these things could help remove any possible bias or anything. But then, nobody has all the right information...

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I don't think it would take away from what they were banned for when they can simply mention that..

What if you were banned for something and you just want to talk more with the mod and get a better rational picture or maybe get a fair chance to discuss it and maybe in the end, the mod will either lessen the ban or remove it all together. Though I don't know how many mods would admit they were wrong.. It'd take away from their "authority." (Don't support this either. They should man up if they have been proven wrong, instead of saying no, I'm right. (Again, not pointed at any mod. This is just a generalization.))

Mods can make mistakes or not know the full situation and banned wrongly. Or if a mod would be willing to unban a perma-banned sn from a while ago that deserves to be unbanned.

And if those mods that don't come on as much retire, and if mod-to-be users are the type to take responsibility, then this whole place would be so much better. Especially for people who get banned and get to chance to plea their case. Again, yeah, I know there is no "right" to plea your case here, but I think there should be and it would be better if more people got answers to their question; and that's better than not getting answers. You can't debate that.

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SwimMod_Luuv wrote:

For another thing, the more details/information you present, the more you

desimplify it.  The more you complicate it.

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So you're saying that if you give details, it gets more confusing..? What..?

Because so many times I've seen users say when did I spam? (And they might be genuinely asking).

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SwimMod_Luuv wrote:
And the more you allow anyone

inclined toward evasive behavior to work whatever angles may exist in

their own minds.

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I'm sorry, but is this just saying that any point of view they have in their heads is wrong and yours is right? (Not trying to come off as aggressive.)

And I do salute you for being one of the few mods in the Why Mod thread. I just think adding a name at the end of the ban will allow the user to better communicate verbally with you - even if it just flames. You can just ignore it. They could PM you if they don't want to make it public. But you can't be so cynical that after a few callouts, you're gonna think all users are gonna do that so no point in leaving my name. There are still good people out there who want to discuss bans civilly. I've seen it.

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SwimMod_Luuv wrote:
But the mods we have, and I think this is good, actually have varying philosophies
to a certain extent about exactly in detail how to moderate.

---

Just to clarify, I don't think all mods should be robots. They should have their own way of modding. But I think that taking responsibility for your actions by dealing with users who want to protest bans - be it civilly or flame-y - should be encompassed within the philosophies. It's just a good thing, to me at least.

And I know you said other mods and admins may notice if a mod is being unfair, but if a user never gets a chance to prove their case - if they wish to do so - then how will it be apparent if the mod is banning wrongly or not? On the surface it may seem like the mod is right, but how do we really know if we don't discuss them deeper? Or a user just wants to clarify the ban more deeply - not protest it.

And it doesn't mean every banee is gonna pounce on the mod. Many people just don't care if they got banned.



I'm sorry. I'm done.

Message Edited by terrorist96 on 03-06-2010 06:26 PM

[spearhead]

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beyondthehorizon wrote:
Maybe because the mods are her Crimson Knights?

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!

Just say my non-srs question wasn't any good, please? 

With that, I keep seeing JusticeGundam asking for his main back.

How long do you think till he actually grasps the concept of what happened to him?

[katt_goddess]

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spearhead wrote:

So, since it appears we have an admin on, care to tell us what kind of features were added after the latest update?

I know our info is no longer automatically filled out when we visit the login page, nor do we have that option to do that, but what else did you add?

Moar cupholders? 

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I don't have a serious answer but I do have a cryptic cereal answer. Ask the Cheerios... OOOOO

Alternative answer, they'll probably let us know when they themselves know what stuck and what warped and needed to be spanked. It's like not knowing what the tattoo is until after you pull the gauze off. Sure they probably wanted a bitchin' firebird but it could easily be a stupid unicorn.

Then again, it's WS so it's probably a tramp stamp that says "Will Work It For Tips" .

[spearhead]

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katt_goddess wrote:

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spearhead wrote:

So, since it appears we have an admin on, care to tell us what kind of features were added after the latest update?

I know our info is no longer automatically filled out when we visit the login page, nor do we have that option to do that, but what else did you add?

Moar cupholders? 

---

I don't have a serious answer but I do have a cryptic cereal answer. Ask the Cheerios... OOOOO

Alternative answer, they'll probably let us know when they themselves know what stuck and what warped and needed to be spanked. It's like not knowing what the tattoo is until after you pull the gauze off. Sure they probably wanted a bitchin' firebird but it could easily be a stupid unicorn.

Then again, it's WS so it's probably a tramp stamp that says "Will Work It For Tips" .

---

Or a buch of fire ants. 

[terrorist96]

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terrorist96 wrote:

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J-Dubb wrote:
I've been reading the HEY MOD thread and people always ask you guys who banned'em and nine times outta ten, the banning mod never addresses the user in question, or comes in to answer said user's question.

So I'm wondering why the mods never label their bans as theirs?
It'll save a whole lotta trouble for both parties, mainly those who DO get banned
Cuz they'd know who banned them.

---

I know I'd always do that if I were a mod. I think it might be either because:

1. They don't want to get yelled at.
2. They don't care enough to reverse bans or give people that option, so they don't check the Why Mod folder. Like one of the users above said, there is nothing that says they need to communicate with the user. (Though I personally think it should be the other way around).
3. They want to still be seen as cool or laid back or not be hated. But in secret, they do ban people. *cough odin cough* (just playin')
4. Communication to them is banning you. Not verbally communicating, ie. discussing it. (Again, I think they should discuss it. With great power comes great responsibility. You can't just exercise power and avoid scrutiny.)

Overall, I think it would cut back on useless posts in the Why Mod thread when the user could PM the mod directly or address it with them in the thread.
And if a mod is finding it they are coming here as little as once every two months, maybe they should retire. (Not directed towards any mod).
Yes, I know it's a volunteer job, but if there are others who can become mods who may be on more and mod more, it would be beneficial.

And if a mod has retired, then the user can appeal it to an admin. And would most likely get a speedy response.
Instead of waiting for a mod who is never going to respond. And the user is not even at least told that the mod doesn't intend to address it so the user can just stop trying. By not addressing the situation, the mod is avoiding responsibility and by not even telling the user they're not gonna talk about it, they're just leaving said user hanging. That's not very nice.

---

beyondthehorizon wrote:
The communication here is in reference to communicating what the ban is for. If mods were to sign their bans, some users could just go, "Oh, Bast banned me again. She's just a jerk." All without taking the time to notice what the ban is actually for.

The ban shouldn't be about who banned you, but what you were banned for. In theory, any mod would've banned you for the same reason.

Maybe what should be happening is any mod could make their own judgment on any given situation, and run it by the other mods in the mod board before running with it. Banning mod can still overrule any decision, but some discussion over these things could help remove any possible bias or anything. But then, nobody has all the right information...

---

I don't think it would take away from what they were banned for when they can simply mention that..

What if you were banned for something and you just want to talk more with the mod and get a better rational picture or maybe get a fair chance to discuss it and maybe in the end, the mod will either lessen the ban or remove it all together. Though I don't know how many mods would admit they were wrong.. It'd take away from their "authority." (Don't support this either. They should man up if they have been proven wrong, instead of saying no, I'm right. (Again, not pointed at any mod. This is just a generalization.))

Mods can make mistakes or not know the full situation and banned wrongly. Or if a mod would be willing to unban a perma-banned sn from a while ago that deserves to be unbanned.

And if those mods that don't come on as much retire, and if mod-to-be users are the type to take responsibility, then this whole place would be so much better. Especially for people who get banned and get to chance to plea their case. Again, yeah, I know there is no "right" to plea your case here, but I think there should be and it would be better if more people got answers to their question; and that's better than not getting answers. You can't debate that.

---

SwimMod_Luuv wrote:

For another thing, the more details/information you present, the more you

desimplify it.  The more you complicate it.

---

So you're saying that if you give details, it gets more confusing..? What..?

Because so many times I've seen users say when did I spam? (And they might be genuinely asking).

---

SwimMod_Luuv wrote:
And the more you allow anyone

inclined toward evasive behavior to work whatever angles may exist in

their own minds.

---

I'm sorry, but is this just saying that any point of view they have in their heads is wrong and yours is right? (Not trying to come off as aggressive.)

And I do salute you for being one of the few mods in the Why Mod thread. I just think adding a name at the end of the ban will allow the user to better communicate verbally with you - even if it just flames. You can just ignore it. They could PM you if they don't want to make it public. But you can't be so cynical that after a few callouts, you're gonna think all users are gonna do that so no point in leaving my name. There are still good people out there who want to discuss bans civilly. I've seen it.

---

SwimMod_Luuv wrote:
But the mods we have, and I think this is good, actually have varying philosophies
to a certain extent about exactly in detail how to moderate.

---

Just to clarify, I don't think all mods should be robots. They should have their own way of modding. But I think that taking responsibility for your actions by dealing with users who want to protest bans - be it civilly or flame-y - should be encompassed within the philosophies. It's just a good thing, to me at least.

And I know you said other mods and admins may notice if a mod is being unfair, but if a user never gets a chance to prove their case - if they wish to do so - then how will it be apparent if the mod is banning wrongly or not? On the surface it may seem like the mod is right, but how do we really know if we don't discuss them deeper? Or a user just wants to clarify the ban more deeply - not protest it.

And it doesn't mean every banee is gonna pounce on the mod. Many people just don't care if they got banned.



I'm sorry. I'm done.

Message Edited by terrorist96 on 03-06-2010 06:26 PM

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I'd like to add to this that I have also seen many instances where a user was banned but never knew what they were banned for. They just rode out the ban. Either they didn't care enough to bring it up with the mods or there were no details in the ban screen or the description in the ban screen wasn't specific enough for them to know what spam or what flaming or whatever. And so many users get temp bans and they try to find out why they got banned and all that stuff, and never find out. And the ban end up running out before they even find out why they were banned to begin with - that is if they do even find out why there were banned. Call me crazy, but to me, that doesn't seem like very good communication.. when a user doesn't even know why they were banned. All they can do is just say whatever, guess I'll ride it out.

No communication is sent or received.

[SwimMod_Luuv]

I think all that already goes on basically.

I think what's perhaps being applied here is - I think some systems are

good with a definitive framework, others work best as more of a flow.

The one we have is, just personal opinion, magnificent in that it is a combination

of both.

Every complaint posted on the board is seen by all mods, admins, and users.

Every action a moderator takes is seen by all mods and admins.

Every question a user has for a mod, or exchange, is witnessed by all users, 

mods and admins, unless it is a PM exchange, in which case, still if anything

goes down the user is uncomfortable with, they can post to the board, or PM

another mod or admin.

Users express their questions/concerns about moderation for all mods, admins

and users to see.

Mods can do the same.

Everybody pretty much can see what everybody else is doing for the most part,

and everybody can pretty much openly comment on it.

On most other boards, moderators pretty much operate almost entirely in

private.  There are no questions, no appeals, no contact even.

In that type of scenario, I could see room for concern.

But - I think another thing people aren't necessarily getting here is, and I've

tried to outline it all in my posts but - part of the problem with being too thorough

is that people ignore some bits and overfocus on others.

But the whole system is a balance between mods, users, admins etc.  Not just

as units, but also as individuals within the larger framework.  

So, you as an individual see a need for this to happen.  IE - in terms of your

personal needs, your personal social aesthetic, you want mods to sign their bans.

What happens when you step out of that individual reality into the larger world

is that there are other individuals with other needs, some of which directly

oppose your need to have mod sign their bans.

The system as it stands I think accomodates that liquidity.  It allows moderators

who wish to do that to do it.  Those who do not, not to do it.  It allows mods to

work through PM.  Participate in the mod thread.  Etc.

My personal way of doing it is to do it through the mod thread, because I think

that works best for the community.  In my personal experience, signing bans 

doesn't work at all.  Not just - sometimes.  But it doesn't work.  I, as an experienced

moderator (going on seven years here), feel that it works best for me to handle

it through the thread on the open board.  

I don't even like doing things through the board PM system.  My preference is to

handle things on the board out in front of everybody.

I check the thread every time I log in.

So, while you may have for whatever reason a personal need for us to

sign our bans, from my perspective, and in my personal experience, that practice

does not work well and is not compatable with how I like to moderate.

So I chose not to do that.

And I think that is part of why it's an excellent system.  

There is room for individuals to chose the optimal way for them personally to mod,

and yet there is no plane on which a moderator can operate in total secrecy without

being seen noticed by users, other mods, admins etc.

And there is no user that can't appeal moderator actions, or even post about them

on the board, as is often done.

There really isn't any way for a moderator to do anything unjust to a user and the user

has no way of discussing it or reporting it, or even posting about it on the public board.

I think it's a pretty nicely fluid system, takes a lot of things into account, there's a solid

TOS framework, yet there is a lot of fluidity to how the volunteers may operate, and

on top of that, there's no way for moderators to do anything in secret/without being

scrutinized.  

Everything is recorded.  On this board, virtually everything, or pretty much most stuff

is handled out on the public board for all users to see.  Any user can complain about

any mod at any time.  Etc.

It really is actually a quite fabulous system we have here on this board.

[SwimMod_Muse]

Personally I use the PM system a lot. I don't know how many times I've PMed someone and gotten the message back that they didn't realize that what they were doing was wrong and they won't do it anymore. I have also received some really nasty responses in return. If I see the same rule broken again or if it's obvious that the user is very aware that they're breaking the rules, I opt to ban in order to get the point across.

Whenever I ban someone I'm aware that they may come to the hey mod thread to ask about it. I try to check that thread but it's not the first thing I do every night.