The Swim Archive

[harryfrodo]

You bumping the ASMB Live Action thread in Babbling reminded me of him. Here's to hoping he returns. Anyway. Down to "business." I'm glad you bumped this thread (I was thinking about doing it myself) because I've really had a lot on my mind about these new changes and how they ultimately are affected the community. Some good, some bad, a lot of in-between. I was a little apprehensive about the changes in the beginning, but I'm fairly content with the way things are all around. I won't talk about all the folders, because if I did I would be here all night. But I would like to raise a couple issues. I'd also like to mention one good thing.

First and foremost, Babbling: I've always been at odds with this folder since I've been here. It's always had a problem with trolls, and you know, that's fine because I'm no innocent cookie, but I feel that the removal of music and games from the folder has turned it into a husk. Kind of a shadow of its former self. Without music and video games the folder has lost a lot of its atmosphere. It really felt like a folder you could go into and discuss absolutely anything in. Now ... Not so much. The need to watch what you talk about just adds an extra precaution when entering the folder, and it really reflects on the overall content of the folder a lot more than others might think thanks to the aforementioned problem. Trolls.

Without games and music, the folder lacks when it comes to content. Movie threads only come around every once in a while when a film is actually worth discussing. There's only one big thread on books. News threads don't really prosper. They only last a couple pages at most, and even then, the content of posts leave much to be desired. So what are you left with? Trolls and relationship threads, which, to be quite honest with you, is not something I find very enjoyable to talk about every single day.

I find myself flipping through the folder less and less every day because it's just nothing more than the same old thing. And maybe it was always the same old thing, but splitting up the folder has really hurt on how much we could sit around talking about same old, same old. So what we're left with is a bunch of Yellow7 threads with people going "In before lock!!!111!!11"

Of course, a lot of good has also come out of this change. We now have a folder where we can discuss nothing but games. We also have a folder where we can discuss nothing but music. And because of this, it allows discussion to exist unhampered by the existence of quote hourglasses and excessive trolling that plagues Babbling. No siree. We have nothing but gamers, and that fact within itself is awesome. But is it ultimately a worthy choice? Is it worth hurting Babbling? Does it even matter? (Cartoon message board argument.)

Maybe not.

And I can't really remember what my second issue was. Maybe it'll come back to me later.

[6_by_9]

I think Babbling has been in trouble for a while, but it's more due to demographic shifts than anything else. Maybe I'm imagining things to have been better than they actually were, but I feel like there was a time when you could always rely on at least a few good discussions happening. The whole environment seems less mature to me these days. Maybe someone should revive the GELLHA type of thread, although those come with their own problems.

[harryfrodo]

That'd be great except for the fact that most of the users from GELLHA no longer come here. The concept was brilliant, and it was the perfect thread to lurk whenever I had nothing to say. Quite easily the most enjoyable and informative thread to exist in Babbling, if not the entire forum. That thread alone really encompassed the mentality of Babbling, and I do truly miss it and the users that frequented it.

But these are different times. It's almost scary how much Babbling has turned into what Incoherent Babbling used to be.

[6_by_9]

Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at. Maybe we're just elitists, though.

[eimajtl]

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SwimOdin wrote:

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SwimTorrent wrote:

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Crimm wrote:
I miss CJ too.

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Shh!  He might hear you and reappear...then destroy us all.

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Psh.  That'll never happen.

*prepares contingency plan*

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.... wonder how that plan turned out for Odin. >.>




Also, I like the boards. Lots of things have changed over the years, but it's still a fun place. 

[harryfrodo]

Oh, we are.

And everyone else better damned like it.

[Retardobuster]

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harryfrodo wrote:
First and foremost, Babbling: I've always been at odds with this folder since I've been here. It's always had a problem with trolls, and you know, that's fine because I'm no innocent cookie, but I feel that the removal of music and games from the folder has turned it into a husk. Kind of a shadow of its former self. Without music and video games the folder has lost a lot of its atmosphere. It really felt like a folder you could go into and discuss absolutely anything in. Now ... Not so much.

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I see what you mean, but like you say, having boards for video games and music has also been great. What I'd really love to see is Babbling, IB, and Rants replaced with more subject-specific boards, but then let people view any combination of them (and the other boards) as if they were a single folder. So, for example, my "Babbling" might be Venture Bros., Bleach, video games, and movies, whereas someone else might have American Dad, InuYasha, politics, and "Life" (for discussions about relationships and school). You could "camp" without really camping, since interacting with other people in any given thread doesn't guarantee they're experiencing the same ASMB you are.

I don't know, just something I was mulling over. Feel free to kick it around.

[harryfrodo]

I asked you if you were seriously with this comment in another thread. And I still am kind of unsure why you think this. It's great that gamers have their own folder, but I was pretty satisfied with everything being in Babbling. If not for the reason that it requires me to move around less folders, threads certainly would chime in a lot more views in Babbling than they would in the General Gaming folder because less people are going to be interested enough to leave the folder and go elsewhere. It's just convenient to have everything all right there in one folder. And while some good topics might get buried too quickly, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. And you're right in saying that splitting up Babbling would kill the trolling problem (at least temporarily) but Babbling has a nice little niche community that I've grown fond of over the years. A lot more than the crowd that hangs around here or any other folder. And I'd really hate to see that go. It makes no sense to have a community build up the way it has over the past five years with Babbling being its usual thing and then to randomly turn around and split it up.

The actions in separating Gen Games and Gen Music seemed almost like an impulse to me. There was no previous mention. There wasn't even a poll asking if we even wanted a change. They kind of just went with it. And while it makes sense in the general scope of the forum appearance (to have Gen games with AS games and Gen Music with AS Music) the question is, really, then... Is there any reason to split up Babbling any more?

I mean, why split up Babbling at all then? Take away a few layers and leave it alone acting like nothing happened? Does it make sense to have a folder made for the discussion of life, but, oh wait ... not the discussion of music or games? It really doesn't. And it's not like the Gen Gaming or Gen Music folders are really that obvious when scrolling through the forum listing. The list is a bit overwhelming now with all the shows being listed, and I really don't see a lot of new users even coming across that certain folders like Gen Music and Gen Gaming even exist because it's all up there in the huge pack of threads.

I just really don't like the idea of splitting up Babbling and even getting rid of Incoherent Babbling. It seems like a step backward to me in preserving happiness within the community, and it might cause a lot of people to leave. But with the way things are right now, the change might not only be logically sound, but a smart move, even if I don't really want to admit it.

As for the ability to view threads under multiple folders on the same page, that's an awesome idea, but I really don't see how it would work.

Message Edited by harryfrodo on 05-19-2008 06:48 PM

[Retardobuster]

A single board to cover most general discussion topics would be fine if traffic were slow enough, but even now (when countless regulars are complaining things are all but dead) threads get bumped off the first page in a matter of hours and off the first few pages in a matter of days. And that's at slower times, like when there's school. That's really why I'm interested in breaking things up according to subject. Also (and this is personal self-interest right here), I hate having to bounce between Babbling and Rants to discuss news/politics/religion, or between Babbling and IB to act silly.

The only downside I see (and yes, it can be a big one) is the one you mentioned about not knowing where to put something that touches upon multiple subjects. GELLHA wouldn't have a home in a purely subject-specific arrangement, unless there was an "Other" category or something. I also agree with you that the current layout is a mess. If only the board categories were listed, with the boards within those categories visible only when you hovered your mouse over them or clicked a drop-down menu, then jumping around would be far easier and less of a damper on activity. A handful of folders, each with a few subfolders, feels just right, whereas a giant list of stand-alone folders or a bunch of subsubfolders would be as much of a deterrent to me as the old white-text-on-black-background look of this place.

I guess I'm just happy that they've finally made some changes (after four years, it was about time), especially considering I like most of them or at least the idea behind them, but I agree we're not quite at a point where I'd like the boards to be. I know there's no pleasing everybody, or even totally pleasing yourself (har har), but I know there's still tweaking that needs to be done. I guess that's a big part of why I bumped this thread.

And I trust Sarteck could probably code the idea I'm suggesting.

Message Edited by Retardobuster on 05-19-2008 07:30 PM

[Alexanderon]

Sometimes that irritated me. Sometimes I'd be like, holy crap, why do people not care about discussing Myanmar and instead choose to chat in Yellow7 threads? But that's just what Babbling is, I guess. You have to take the good and the bad. You have to take the good and the bad of everything this forum offers and even forces you to go through every day you come here. I think you're right to say that sometimes good threads are buried because of traffic, but at the same time I really wonder whether Babbling gets enough traffic to really warrant such a change.

I usually like changes. Usually. But I just feel like this whole thing is a step backward.



And I still can't remember that other thing I was going to say in that post at the top of the page.

Message Edited by Alexanderon on 05-20-2008 02:20 AM

[SwimMod_Bast]

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6_by_9 wrote:
I think Babbling has been in trouble for a while, but it's more due to demographic shifts than anything else. Maybe I'm imagining things to have been better than they actually were, but I feel like there was a time when you could always rely on at least a few good discussions happening. The whole environment seems less mature to me these days. Maybe someone should revive the GELLHA type of thread, although those come with their own problems.

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I definitely think this is true. I think in a lot of cases it boils down to that microcosm eating itself. And I mean I think this was happening too before the redesign.
A lot of the fights in that folder stem from the same people having the same argument over and over across several threads. Like some of the folks there are just so tired of one another that they just can't hold it in any longer and that is compounded by boredom with the folder and not having anything meaty to discuss. But they are here to stay out of habit or for whatever other reasons, rain or shine, and while they're here, they're in Babbling. Rather than explore somewhere else where there might be something interesting to discuss or other people to get to know.
So .. the same people having the same fights over and over. Thread after thread. Like a giant disfunctional family.
.... sprinkled with trolls.

GELLHA wasn't the first thread of it's kind. There were a lot of discussions like it on Prospero and in the early Lithium days with Finn, Nu, Rain, hypatia, NilesCaulder and the like. In those days there was one called "DisscussDisscussDisscuss", but it was the same concept as GELLHA. It's not inconceivable that those kinds of threads could prosper agian. All you need is a few people that are interested in cultivating the discussion. Then more people become interested. You don't need the same people to have those discussions. There were people before GELLHA. There were those people. And there will be people now. When those people leave there will be more people after. They're here somewhere. They're just drown out now in the cacophany of "everything else". 

[Bizarrobuster]

Personally, and I know I'm in a tiny minority here, I think a good way to shake things up for the better would be to simply lock Noise, archive it, and start fresh with new, more focused folders. After five years, boards with names like "Babbling" and "Rants" are bound to develop cliques and cultures that may not be the healthiest for quality discussion (note that I'm not precluding off-the-wall stuff like Arm Meat), and it doesn't help when the topic divisions between them aren't very clear.

[Alexanderon]

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SwimMod_Bast wrote:
GELLHA wasn't the first thread of it's kind. There were a lot of discussions like it on Prospero and in the early Lithium days with Finn, Nu, Rain, hypatia, NilesCaulder and the like. In those days there was one called "DisscussDisscussDisscuss", but it was the same concept as GELLHA. It's not inconceivable that those kinds of threads could prosper agian. All you need is a few people that are interested in cultivating the discussion. Then more people become interested. You don't need the same people to have those discussions. There were people before GELLHA. There were those people. And there will be people now. When those people leave there will be more people after. They're here somewhere. They're just drown out now in the cacophany of "everything else"

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I remember that thread. The DiscussDiscussDiscuss one. Never posted in it. More or less lurked. Anyway I kind of just get the feeling that a thread of that nature is just no longer what people are interested in anymore. Perhaps I'm wrong, but any time a serious issue or conversation is brought up, it devolves within a couple pages. Babbling just isn't the same folder it was back then. It was plagued with the same problems it has now, but I think the degree of the problem was a bit less widespread.

Maybe it'll be attempted.

Message Edited by Alexanderon on 05-22-2008 03:08 AM

[Alexanderon]

I'd also like to mention: is it just me, or has Rants been moving faster since the update? Hell, there have been several moments throughout the past few days where it seemed like it was even moving faster than Babbling.

[SwimMod_Bast]

Well, the community is always evolving and as it stands now a thread like that would be difficult to keep going. It would take a lot of effort. I think given the state of things though and the absense of the other topics in Babbling to discuss, music and games, that is, there are two ways it can go. More to the inco side or more toward politics, other entertainment, and other current events. During the summer in an election yesr, I think the ground is fertile to cultivate some decent discussions in tha folder. The only trick is leading people to them and getting people to post more than one liners about butt pox or playing with yourself.

I don't think the slate needs to be wiped clean with noise. Those folders are always what the community makes them, becaue the people who post there make the content. They are still the most active folders in the community.  Simply closing the folders to "start over" would be essentially squelching and alienating the majority of the community. When I first started posting here as a new poster, I stayed mostly in AD and ventured only a couple of times to noise. In August, September and later months 2003 I saw threads in noise go from stupid stuff to steadily more intelligent discussions. Threads would start out with OPs that were.. lame as all hell , like "scholl s ucks azz!!11!!" and then evolve into many page in depth discussions about the reformation of the education system and modern pedegogy. It was magic. And there was nothing special about that time other than the fact that there were a few posters that were really thinky, really wordy, and really fast typers. heh. It was like spam in reverse.

It just takes some people who are willing to feed discussions rather than wreck them. That's all it takes.

[Arrem_Lowlander]

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SwimMod_Bast wrote:

It just takes some people who are willing to feed discussions rather than wreck them. That's all it takes.

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On that note, I'm not planning on posting the Unofficial Election 2008 thread in Rants until September 1, 2008: the date that the last major party convention begins.

Is that cool? 

[NightRangersAshes]

Over a year later, I bump thee, to see if anyone has anything to add about the State of the Boards in 2009...

For awhile I felt completely out of touch with the boards, I sat in my rants corner, pretty much to converse with the same people, but lately I've been venturing into different threads, talking to "new" people (new to me, that is) that seem pretty cool, and like they have something to say. I just feel over all that this past year has been a pleasent upturn in board fun-ness, at least for me.

Or maybe it's just my attitude and expectations have changed...

[lunarnoodle]

Man, reading the first couple of pages here you don't really notice that any time has passed at all. The gripes from then are same as the gripes now.

So, state of the boards: same as it ever was.

[GodspreadThin]

The boards are as strong as the people who make it.

That said, they seem fine.  I don't expect this place to sink underground anytime soon.

[desantoos]

Bump to say that they finally fixed so many problems with the boards*, but unfortunately it was two years too late. So many people that were great are now gone. There are some pretty good people left, but the community that was here three to five years ago was so much better.

*Strangely enough, I think IB is going to get a lot better. It's a hopeful time for the ASMB as its membership shrunk for a while but it could be on the rebound.

[Goldar]

What makes you think/say IB is going to get a lot better? I used to frequent quite a bit, but I find myself frequenting Babbling more as of late, although I visit all of the Noise folder when I sign on, they're the three most entertaining folders to me.